Re: Results after talking with Barry

Hello Fred,

>Sounds like the goal is NOT to do just a quick and dirty hack, and NOT
>to fork Mailman, but to write code that will become a part of the
>Mailman distribution, possibly starting in Mailman 2.1.

Correct, it will be a clean implementation. Well, not in 2.1, but 2.2 and 
3.0 perhaps. It will take some time until we have enough code and 
abstraction layer created, before we can merge. So, please start designing 
and coding. The more we get done over Christmas, the better will be my 
meeting with Barry in January, at which date a first merge could occur.

>  1) A branch on the Mailman CVS for zmailman.  This will provide one
>     central repository for all design docs and code for our project.
>     If you want my help, I'll need everything in one place so that
>     I can do a cvs checkout and updates to stay up to date with what
>     is going on.

Already long done. http://demo.iuveno-net.de/iuveno/Products/ZMailman

cvs -d :pserver:[email protected]:/cvs login
Password: anonymous
cvs -z3 -d :pserver:[email protected]:/cvs co ZMailman

There is not much there yet, other than just some random stuff, but I 
welcome check-ins. You login comes in another mail.

>  2) An announcement on the appropriate mailing lists that this
>     project is happening.  This will be an opportunity to recruit
>     some more folks, and spread the word about the goal of the
>     zmailman project.  I think we need something on zope-dev and
>     on the main mailman development list, whatever it is called.

Well, both of these lists know about this project. My original mails were 
always CCed to both of them.

>     We might also want to make an announcement on a Python list.

Please do so; I am not subscribed there.

>     I think we need more person hours to make this project happen.
>     In order to get those hours, we have to let people know what
>     we're doing and how they can help.

Yes, but also we need to start doing something...

>  3) Space on the Mailman web site.  In addition to the CVS branch,
>     we need a place for our project description, download packages,
>     screen shots, etc.

Already done. For now at least we have 
http://demo.iuveno-net.de/iuveno/Products/ZMailman

>     random site.  If getting write access to the Mailman web site
>     is impossible, we should at least get a link from the Mailman
>     web site to our own web site.

I think that will be no problem, once things materialize. But it is one 
thing to have a fancy Web site and another one to have some working design 
and code. So let's focus on that first.

>     I suppose we should also put something on a Zope web site
>     somewhere, since zmailman is ultimately just a Zope product.
>     But I understand that zope.org is due for a major overhaul,
>     so maybe we could wait on that one.

Well, I want to get something presentable first, before I make a big deal 
about it. Once Mailman 3.0 comes around in March or April (including our 
efforts), then we will have all the attention in the world. But until 
there, we have a long and rocky road ahead.

>Um, what is a UML?  (Can you tell I got my CS degree in the 1980s? ;-)

UML is a modeling language or way to model object-oriented software, before 
implementing. It will show you all the dependencies and the classes you are 
going to implement. It is easy to learn. You can simply download 
ObjectDomain from the Web. It is free for up to 30 classes in a diagram...
If you ave not looked at it, see 
http://demo.iuveno-net.de/iuveno/Products/ZMailman/Documentation

>I assume the UML is a diagram of the data structures of Mailman.  Does
>this mean that the data structures of Mailman are currently
>undocumented, or is the UML some special way to document the data
>structures that will shed goodness and light on zmailman?

Correct! :-)

>  1) Is there a project plan for Mailman 2.1?
>  2) What are the design goals for 2.1?
>  3) Who is working on 2.1?
>  4) When will 2.1 'final' be released?

These are all Barry-questions. While we will use MM2.1 as a base, we will 
not join the efforts yet, since some of the abstraction layers in MM are 
not there yet, and I hope we will be able to develop them with our effort.

>I also want to understand the 'Z' in zmailman.  (By the way, can
>we use all lowercase for ZMailman or is that a faux pas?)

Z stands for Zope Product, so people will not confuse it with the Mailman 
product. The name is just common Zope naming style. I do not give a sh... 
of how it is called. I am interested in a good system.

>Which version of Zope are we targeting?

Right now version 2.5. We will target 3.0 with Mailman 3.0 after January... 
BTW, Barry and I are thinking about a Mailman BOF session at IPC10, are you 
or anyone else coming?

>Just to be brutally self-centered, let me say at the outset that I'm going
>to be splitting my cycles on Zope / Mailman stuff between zmailman and our
>own internal project at EcoAccess to just get the darn thing working
>already (i.e., calling the Mailman CGI scripts through a Zope external
>method that will work with Zope 2.3.3).

That is totally fine.

>I just want to make sure I understand the goal for zmailman, namely that
>we will produce a product for Zope 2.5.0 or better that works with Mailman
>2.1 or better.  Thus, we are shooting at two moving targets (not to
>mention the moving target of Python 2.x underneath it all).  Should be
>interesting!

I know, but these new versions just provide so many new things, that it is 
worth it. My assumption is that by March or April everything will be stable.

>  1) Project participants be given write access to a CVS repository,
>     preferably a branch on the Mailman CVS server so we can begin
>     checking in code to a central location.

Done, you got one. Everyone else who would like to help, please send me a mail.

>  2) Someone write up the "official" project announcement (including
>     the goals of the project and the fact that the Mailman folks think
>     this is a Good Thing) and post it everywhere potential developers
>     and / or paying clients might be lurking.

Okay, I leave it up to someone to do it. I am not big on announcing things 
without having working code, but I support a press release if people think 
that is a good idea.

>  3) Someone write up some HTML pages to create an online presence
>     for the project, and link those pages in to the main Mailman
>     web site.  We need to think through what zmailman will do for
>     people, and explain it on the project pages.

I have started that on the site above. You got the same login as for the CVS.
http://demo.iuveno-net.de/iuveno/Products/ZMailman/manage

>Then, let's get some code in the CVS repository and start hacking!

Yeah, that is the attitude I support! :-)

>Does this sound good to anyone?  Hey, where's everyone going? ;-)

Well, let's hope that is not going to happen. As I said yesterday, I will 
be able to do some mission-critical development, but this cannot be a 
one-man (or two-man) show. I have a bunch of other projects (such as 
ZBabel) to work on.

Regards,
Stephan

--
Stephan Richter
CBU - Physics and Chemistry Student
Web2k - Web Design/Development & Technical Project Management