Re: There is a market for the the ZODB.

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I attended this talk that there was a huge amount of nonsense in this talk,=
=20
apart from the poor and chaotic presentation.

Trying to sell the ZODB a graph database...well, nice try.=20

Of course a hierarchical storage is some kind of graph.

But we are in 2018 and we have have graph databases like Neo4J or=20
multi-model database like ArangoDB which work perfectly as graph database.

A graph database requires higher level query functionality like calculating=
=20
the shortest path etc.

Check the API of ArangoDB for this purpose:

https://docs.arangodb.com/3.2/AQL/Graphs/Traversals.html

There is nothing comparable in ZODB. Even a standard catalog on top of the=
=20
ZODB does not make it a graph database.

The ZODB is a transactional, hierarchical grave for Python pickles. Point.

The ZODB served us well for two decades and it is still doing its job but=
=20
please stop promoting the ZODB for the wrong purpose.

In particular you gave the very same talk some years ago at the Plone=20
conference in Bucharest or so...you just added some slides with graph=20
database stuff but that
does not turn the ZODB out of the sudden into a graph database.

You also mentioned ZeroDB as decent solution. This project is unmaintained=
=20
or even dead since > 2 years.

My point: you constructed a pointless usecase for the ZODB in a pretty poor=
=20
way.

My recommendation for a graph database together with an document store is=
=20
ArangoDB.
This is meanwhile our primary choice when you need the power of a document=
=20
store combined with the defining arbitrary relations between documents=20
together with a powerful query API that allows to query both the documents=
=20
and the graph. But using a hierachical object store that mimics relations=
=20
in some way does not make it a graph database.

-aj


Am Mittwoch, 3. Oktober 2018 14:03:04 UTC+2 schrieb Christopher Lozinski:
>
> People are hugely interested in learning about graph databases.=20
>
> I thought that when I gave a talk on the ZODB, it was about pushing it as=
=20
> a commercial product.=20
> How many users, what is its performance, how big can the database be?
>
> That is all wrong.  The reason that people come to a  talk on the ZODB, i=
s=20
> because=20
> they are interested in learning about graph databases.  So my new talk=20
> title is=20
>
> =E2=80=9CIntroduction to graph databases using the ZODB as an example=E2=
=80=9D
>
> And then my focus is on communicating the concepts.  And then the stuff=
=20
> about performance,=20
> maturity, and number of users just comes at the end.=20
>
> And because my focus is now on the concepts, people end up with a much=20
> better understanding=20
> of the ZODB.  There was the example of the person who asked a few days ag=
o=20
> about changing=20
> the class of an object.  The reason he had that problem is because he did=
=20
> not quite have the right
> concepts.  "Read the code=E2=80=9D is the advice we all get.  But much mo=
re=20
> friendly would be: =E2=80=9CHere is a nice video=20
> about  the concepts behind the ZODB. =E2=80=9C
>
> I will be giving this talk again at PyCon DE.  The conference title is=20
> =E2=80=9CZODB the Graph Database for=20
> Python Developers. " If anyone is interested in giving such a talk at=20
> their local meetup, here re the slides.=20
> https://pythonlinks.info//presentations/zodbtalk.pdf
>
> It is also a good way to get a free admission to a local Python=20
> Conferences.=20
>
> And of course if enough people like the talks, some will start using the=
=20
> ZODB. =20
>
> Which would be good for all of us.=20
>
> Warm Regards
> Christopher Lozinski
>
> https://PythonLinks.info
> tel: +48 12 361 3136
> Skype: clozinski
>
>
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr">I attended this talk that there was a huge amount of nonse=
nse in this talk, apart from the poor and chaotic presentation.<div><br></d=
iv><div>Trying to sell the ZODB a graph database...well, nice try.=C2=A0</d=
iv><div><br></div><div>Of course a hierarchical storage is some kind of gra=
ph.</div><div><br></div><div>But we are in 2018 and we have have graph data=
bases like Neo4J or multi-model database like ArangoDB which work perfectly=
 as graph database.</div><div><br></div><div>A graph database requires high=
er level query functionality like calculating the shortest path etc.<br><br=
>Check the API of ArangoDB for this purpose:</div><div><br></div><div>https=
://docs.arangodb.com/3.2/AQL/Graphs/Traversals.html</div><div><br></div><di=
v>There is nothing comparable in ZODB. Even a standard catalog on top of th=
e ZODB does not make it a graph database.</div><div><br></div><div>The ZODB=
 is a transactional, hierarchical grave for Python pickles. Point.</div><di=
v><br></div><div>The ZODB served us well for two decades and it is still do=
ing its job but please stop promoting the ZODB for the wrong purpose.</div>=
<div><br></div><div>In particular you gave the very same talk some years ag=
o at the Plone conference in Bucharest or so...you just added some slides w=
ith graph database stuff but that</div><div>does not turn the ZODB out of t=
he sudden into a graph database.</div><div><br></div><div>You also mentione=
d ZeroDB as decent solution. This project is unmaintained or even dead sinc=
e &gt; 2 years.</div><div><br></div><div>My point: you constructed a pointl=
ess usecase for the ZODB in a pretty poor way.</div><div><br></div><div>My =
recommendation for a graph database together with an document store is Aran=
goDB.</div><div>This is meanwhile our primary choice when you need the powe=
r of a document store combined with the defining arbitrary relations betwee=
n documents together with a powerful query API that allows to query both th=
e documents and the graph. But using a hierachical object store that mimics=
 relations in some way does not make it a graph database.</div><div><br></d=
iv><div>-aj</div><div><br><br>Am Mittwoch, 3. Oktober 2018 14:03:04 UTC+2 s=
chrieb Christopher Lozinski:<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"marg=
in: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;border-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;"><d=
iv style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space"><div>People =
are hugely interested in learning about graph databases.=C2=A0</div><div><b=
r></div><div>I thought that when I gave a talk on the ZODB, it was about pu=
shing it as a commercial product.=C2=A0</div><div>How many users, what is i=
ts performance, how big can the database be?</div><div><br></div><div>That =
is all wrong. =C2=A0The reason that people come to a =C2=A0talk on the ZODB=
, is because=C2=A0</div><div>they are interested in learning about graph da=
tabases. =C2=A0So my new talk title is=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>=E2=
=80=9CIntroduction to graph databases using the ZODB as an example=E2=80=9D=
</div><div><br></div><div>And then my focus is on communicating the concept=
s. =C2=A0And then the stuff about performance,=C2=A0</div><div>maturity, an=
d number of users just comes at the end.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>And=
 because my focus is now on the concepts, people end up with a much better =
understanding=C2=A0</div><div>of the ZODB. =C2=A0There was the example of t=
he person who asked a few days ago about changing=C2=A0</div><div>the class=
 of an object. =C2=A0The reason he had that problem is because he did not q=
uite have the right</div><div>concepts. =C2=A0&quot;Read the code=E2=80=9D =
is the advice we all get. =C2=A0But much more friendly would be: =E2=80=9CH=
ere is a nice video=C2=A0</div><div>about =C2=A0the concepts behind the ZOD=
B. =E2=80=9C</div><div><br></div><div>I will be giving this talk again at P=
yCon DE. =C2=A0The conference title is =E2=80=9CZODB the Graph Database for=
=C2=A0</div><div>Python Developers. &quot; If anyone is interested in givin=
g such a talk at their local meetup, here re the slides.=C2=A0</div><div><a=
 href=3D"https://pythonlinks.info//presentations/zodbtalk.pdf" target=3D"_b=
lank" rel=3D"nofollow" onmousedown=3D"this.href=3D&#39;https://www.google.c=
om/url?q\x3dhttps%3A%2F%2Fpythonlinks.info%2F%2Fpresentations%2Fzodbtalk.pd=
f\x26sa\x3dD\x26sntz\x3d1\x26usg\x3dAFQjCNFqZ2RnHjDLgmdNAQNz4Wx2j1hSQg&#39;=
;return true;" onclick=3D"this.href=3D&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\x3d=
https%3A%2F%2Fpythonlinks.info%2F%2Fpresentations%2Fzodbtalk.pdf\x26sa\x3dD=
\x26sntz\x3d1\x26usg\x3dAFQjCNFqZ2RnHjDLgmdNAQNz4Wx2j1hSQg&#39;;return true=
;">https://pythonlinks.info//<wbr>presentations/zodbtalk.pdf</a></div><div>=
<br></div><div>It is also a good way to get a free admission to a local Pyt=
hon Conferences.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>And of course if enough peo=
ple like the talks, some will start using the ZODB. =C2=A0</div><div><br></=
div><div>Which would be good for all of us.=C2=A0</div><br><div>
<div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-fam=
ily:Helvetica;font-style:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;te=
xt-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-=
spacing:0px">Warm Regards</div><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:H=
elvetica;font-style:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-al=
ign:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spaci=
ng:0px">Christopher Lozinski</div><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-famil=
y:Helvetica;font-style:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text=
-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-sp=
acing:0px"><br></div><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Helvetica;f=
ont-style:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;=
text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><a=
 href=3D"https://PythonLinks.info" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"nofollow" onmou=
sedown=3D"this.href=3D&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\x3dhttps%3A%2F%2FPy=
thonLinks.info\x26sa\x3dD\x26sntz\x3d1\x26usg\x3dAFQjCNGJlpTxemRlZZ_wJrPVZg=
Csnu16ow&#39;;return true;" onclick=3D"this.href=3D&#39;https://www.google.=
com/url?q\x3dhttps%3A%2F%2FPythonLinks.info\x26sa\x3dD\x26sntz\x3d1\x26usg\=
x3dAFQjCNGJlpTxemRlZZ_wJrPVZgCsnu16ow&#39;;return true;">https://PythonLink=
s.info</a><br>tel: +48 12 361 3136<br>Skype: clozinski<br><br></div></div>
</div>
<br></div></blockquote></div></div>

<p></p>

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