Re: Re: In defense of the ZODB
Andreas Jung <[email protected]> Thu, 1 Nov 2018 00:32:26 -0700 (PDT)
| Newsgroups | gmane.comp.web.zope.zodb |
|---|---|
| Message-ID | <[email protected]> |
------=_Part_185_1757216594.1541057546947 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_186_798826813.1541057546947" ------=_Part_186_798826813.1541057546947 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable It's all about (constantly) telling nonsense and doing improper marketing= =20 for things that are just not true..that's the whole point. Nothing about or against the ZODB or whatever...but promoting a non=20 existing ZODB "graph database" as a "graph database" is just awkward. -aj Am Donnerstag, 1. November 2018 08:01:28 UTC+1 schrieb tk: > > Good morning Andreas,=20 > > You seem a little angry for nothing... I like ZODB because its free=20 > software and a better object-oriented database than Durus mostly. I'm=20 > not interested in upgrading to something else strictly because there is= =20 > a market for this thing... In fact I'm always looking for the best open= =20 > source softwares possible and the possibility to adapt my softwares=20 > based on what my customers need, not what other peoples are telling me=20 > to use. :-)=20 > > kind regards,=20 > > tk=20 > > Le 2018-10-31 =C3=A0 00:57, Andreas Jung a =C3=A9crit :=20 > > Just stop with these pointless tries to redefine or rename the ZODB. Th= e=20 > > ZODB is around for almost 20 years. We have a clear understanding what= =20 > > the ZODB is and where it should be used for and where not. And=20 > > something like "...optimized in C" is pointless. Please stop this=20 > > marketing nonsense. There are no new markets for the ZODB. The ZODB is= =20 > > still a solid solution. But for decent applications with decent=20 > > requirements regarding functionality, scalability etc. we have better= =20 > > options than 10 or 20 years ago. And again, there are no new markets an= d=20 > > there are no new opportunities. Customers don't care about the=20 > > underlaying data storages in customer projects, developers don't care= =20 > > much about the ZODB. THat's the situation. Not much to be added.=20 > >=20 > > -aj=20 > >=20 > > Am Montag, 29. Oktober 2018 08:40:14 UTC+1 schrieb Christopher Lozinski= :=20 > >=20 > > There really are different target markets. And those different=20 > > target markets think different things.=20 > >=20 > > There is the community of computer scientists. They have=20 > > definitions for hierarchical databases, relational databases,=20 > > object-oriented databases, and graph databases. It was useful to= =20 > > read the wikipedia definitions of those different types of=20 > > databases. The ZODB does primarily fall into the Object-Oriented= =20 > > category, although it has a lot of similarities with the=20 > > hierarchical and even with the graph database. (It has nodes,=20 > > directed edges and properties but not a query language nor graph=20 > > theory behind it). So the computer scientists are happy calling it= =20 > > an object database. And have understandable objections to calling= =20 > > it a graph database.=20 > >=20 > > I think that there is another group of people. The average user of= =20 > > relational databases. They are aware that there is a lot of=20 > > complexity mapping back and forth. They know that they have a=20 > > =E2=80=9Cgraph" of Python objects. They like the idea of a =E2=80= =9CGraph=20 > > Database=E2=80=9D. For them it is just a "graph of objects", witho= ut the=20 > > mental baggage that the computer scientists carry with them. =20 > > Maybe, like me, they have not read the Wikipedia definitions. At= =20 > > the next conference I go to, I will survey the different world=20 > > views. It will be interesting to see how that market thinks about= =20 > > these things.=20 > >=20 > > In any case, a lot of the computer scientists sit on proposal revie= w=20 > > boards, and so in the future I will title my talk: =E2=80=9CZODB, t= he Object=20 > > Database for Python Developers=E2=80=9D. With that change, I will= probably=20 > > get a lot more acceptances. Thank you.=20 > >=20 > > But it is also important to connect with what the average user is= =20 > > thinking. I propose the following description.=20 > >=20 > > =E2=80=9CZODB is an object database implemented in Python and optim= ized in=20 > > C. Just subclass off of the persistent classes and your objects,= =20 > > graphs, and applications become persistent.=E2=80=9D=20 > >=20 > > I hope that approach will satisfy everyone. Maybe there are some= =20 > > people who only see one point of view, and will not be happy that I= =20 > > used the word graph. We will see.=20 > >=20 > > Warm Regards=20 > > Christopher Lozinski=20 > >=20 > >=20 > > --=20 > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google=20 > > Groups "zodb" group.=20 > > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send= =20 > > an email to [email protected] <javascript:>=20 > > <mailto:[email protected] <javascript:>>.=20 > > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.=20 > > --=20 > [email protected] <javascript:> | Twitter: @wise_project=20 > https://www.isotoperesearch.ca=20 > https://www.isotopesoftware.ca=20 > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= zodb" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to [email protected]. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. ------=_Part_186_798826813.1541057546947 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <div dir=3D"ltr">It's all about (constantly) telling nonsense and doing= improper marketing for things that are just not true..that's the whole= point.<div>Nothing about or against the ZODB or whatever...but promoting a= non existing ZODB "graph database" as a "graph database&quo= t;=C2=A0 is just awkward.<br><div><br></div><div>-aj<br><br>Am Donnerstag, = 1. November 2018 08:01:28 UTC+1 schrieb tk:<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote= " style=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;border-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding= -left: 1ex;">Good morning Andreas, <br> <br>You seem a little angry for nothing... I like ZODB because its free=20 <br>software and a better object-oriented database than Durus mostly. I'= ;m=20 <br>not interested in upgrading to something else strictly because there is= =20 <br>a market for this thing... In fact I'm always looking for the best = open=20 <br>source softwares possible and the possibility to adapt my softwares=20 <br>based on what my customers need, not what other peoples are telling me= =20 <br>to use. =C2=A0:-) <br> <br>kind regards, <br> <br>tk <br> <br>Le 2018-10-31 =C3=A0 00:57, Andreas Jung a =C3=A9crit=C2=A0: <br>> Just stop with these pointless tries to redefine or rename the ZOD= B. The=20 <br>> ZODB is around for almost 20 years. We have a clear understanding = what=20 <br>> the ZODB is and where it should be used for and where not.=C2=A0 A= nd=20 <br>> something like "...optimized in C" is pointless. Please = stop this=20 <br>> marketing nonsense. There are no new markets for the ZODB. The ZOD= B is=20 <br>> still a solid solution. But for decent applications with decent=20 <br>> requirements regarding functionality, scalability etc. we have bet= ter=20 <br>> options than 10 or 20 years ago. And again, there are no new marke= ts and=20 <br>> there are no new opportunities. Customers don't care about the= =20 <br>> underlaying data storages in customer projects, developers don'= ;t care=20 <br>> much about the ZODB. THat's the situation. Not much to be adde= d. <br>>=20 <br>> -aj <br>>=20 <br>> Am Montag, 29. Oktober 2018 08:40:14 UTC+1 schrieb Christopher Loz= inski: <br>>=20 <br>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 There really are different target markets.=C2=A0 And= those different <br>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 target markets think different things. <br>>=20 <br>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 There is the community of computer scientists.=C2=A0= They have <br>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 definitions for hierarchical databases, relational d= atabases, <br>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 object-oriented databases, and graph databases.=C2= =A0 It was useful to <br>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 read the wikipedia definitions of those different ty= pes of <br>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 databases.=C2=A0 The ZODB does primarily fall into t= he Object-Oriented <br>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 category, although it has a lot of similarities with= the <br>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 hierarchical and even with the graph database.=C2=A0= (It has nodes, <br>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 directed edges and properties but not a query langua= ge nor graph <br>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 theory behind it).=C2=A0 So the computer scientists = are happy calling it <br>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 an object database.=C2=A0 And have understandable ob= jections to calling <br>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 it a graph database. <br>>=20 <br>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 I think that there is another group of people.=C2=A0= The average user of <br>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 relational databases.=C2=A0 They are aware that ther= e is a lot of <br>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 complexity mapping back and forth.=C2=A0 They know t= hat they have a <br>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =E2=80=9Cgraph" of Python objects.=C2=A0 They l= ike the idea of a =E2=80=9CGraph <br>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Database=E2=80=9D.=C2=A0 For them it is just a "= ;graph of objects", without the <br>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 mental baggage that the computer scientists carry wi= th them. =C2=A0 <br>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Maybe, like me, they have not read the Wikipedia def= initions.=C2=A0 At <br>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 the next conference I go to, I will survey the diffe= rent world <br>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 views.=C2=A0 It will be interesting to see how that = market thinks about <br>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 these things. <br>>=20 <br>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 In any case, a lot of the computer scientists sit on= proposal review <br>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 boards, and so in the future I will title my talk: = =E2=80=9CZODB, the Object <br>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Database for Python Developers=E2=80=9D. =C2=A0 With= that change, I will probably <br>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 get a lot more acceptances.=C2=A0 Thank you. <br>>=20 <br>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 But it is also important to connect with what the av= erage user is <br>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 thinking.=C2=A0 I propose the following description. <br>>=20 <br>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =E2=80=9CZODB is an object database implemented in P= ython and optimized in <br>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 C.=C2=A0 Just subclass off of the persistent classes= and your objects, <br>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 graphs, and applications become persistent.=E2=80=9D <br>>=20 <br>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 I hope that approach will satisfy everyone.=C2=A0 Ma= ybe there are some <br>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 people who only see one point of view, and will not = be happy that I <br>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 used the word graph.=C2=A0 We will see. <br>>=20 <br>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Warm Regards <br>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Christopher Lozinski <br>>=20 <br>>=20 <br>> --=20 <br>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google= =20 <br>> Groups "zodb" group. <br>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, = send=20 <br>> an email to <a href=3D"javascript:" target=3D"_blank" gdf-obfuscat= ed-mailto=3D"iqN7kqbsAgAJ" rel=3D"nofollow" onmousedown=3D"this.href=3D'= ;javascript:';return true;" onclick=3D"this.href=3D'javascript:'= ;;return true;">zodb+uns...@googlegroups.<wbr>com</a>=20 <br>> <mailto:<a href=3D"javascript:" target=3D"_blank" gdf-obfuscate= d-mailto=3D"iqN7kqbsAgAJ" rel=3D"nofollow" onmousedown=3D"this.href=3D'= javascript:';return true;" onclick=3D"this.href=3D'javascript:'= ;return true;">zodb+uns...@<wbr>googlegroups.com</a>>. <br>> For more options, visit <a href=3D"https://groups.google.com/d/opt= out" 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