Re: Zope3 name

Joseph Grace wrote:
> It sounds like we're making progress but many important and even basic 
> migration issues remain unresolved.

And will remain resolved until we can resolve them.


>  >The bottom
>  >line has always been that we will provide tools to allow people to 
> leverage
>  >their investment in Zope 2.
> 
> Hmm, that would be useful but potentially the poor stepchild to the 
> approaches which you suggest below. 

The statement above was a general statement. I didn't discuss specific
approaches.


 > It's important to provide guidance
> about which approach(es) will be supported and required.

And we will when we know what they are. I could guess or lie now and
then change the message later, or I can be honest ans say that I
don't know. I can assure you that we will decide these issues soon
enough that people will have lots of time to plan for the transition.


> It would also be nice if you could provide some sense of what tools 
> would be required and how sophisticated such tools would be.  Are they 
> conversion (zope2->zope3) tools?  How complicated is the conversion?  Do 
> they leave some stuff to be done manually?  What percentage would they 
> convert? (99%, 95% 90%, 75%?)  Any manual stuff left would be flagged 
> and...?  Easy?  Challenging?  Tricky?

We don't know. I'm repeating this answer, but people keep asking the same
questions. What part of "I don't know yet" is unclear? :)


> If these are simple transformations, it sounds like a (nearly) 
> non-issue.  If they're complex, that's a whole 'nother beast entirely.  
> Some gauge of the complexity would be desirable (short of committing to 
> back/forward compatibility, below.
> 
>  >> 1) Will Zope 3 support the Zope 2 API, or even a subset?
>  >
>  >This has not been decided, but the likelihood is that it will.
>  >
>  >> 2) Will Zope 2 support the Zope 3 API, or even a subset?  (This is
>  >> discussed below.)
>  >
>  >This has not been decided, but the likelihood is that it will.
>  >[...]
>  >> If meaningful parts of Zope 3
>  >> are introduced back into Zope 2, then we're in good shape.
>  >
>  >It is likely that this will be the approach used.

This wasn't quite as precise as it should have been. I should have said:

    "It is likely that this will be an approach used."


> These approaches are the most desirable and smoothest. 

Maybe. It depends. It won't help for Zope 2 apps that aren't being
actively maintained. Then again, Zope 2 apps that aren't
maintain tend to lose their usefulness.

 > Your intentions
> for such compatibility support sound promising.  It would be nice to 
> have definite information whether these will be provided, *and* to what 
> extent: full, 99%, 95%, 90%, 75%?  Perhaps a list of technologies which 
> will have the support, and a list of the features which will not (if 
> such is known)?  This last question is mute if backwards compatibility 
> will be full, with a good starting base of forward compatibility from 
> zope2.
 >
> Your firm guidance is essential.

See my remarks above. We will give firm guidance when we can. I expect that
this will toward the end of this summer.

>  >The goal is to make transition as smooth as possible.
> 
> Excellent.
> 
>  >I want to
>  >put off deciding for sure on the technical approach until after
>  >the beta.
>  >[...]
>  >The technical details of the transition have been defered.
> 
> How long until these decisions will be made? 

I would *guess* late this summer.

 > When is beta expected (I
> assume this refers to the current "Zope3 1.0 beta" and that we're 
> currently on something like Zope3 1.0 alpha?)?  (This whole premature 
> alpha/beta is another issue.)

There has been a Zope 3x alpha. The first Zope 3.0 alpha is planned for
December. The first Zope 3.0 beta is planned for February of next year.


> Perhaps we should put off heavy, detailed migration discussions and 
> planning until some of these basic decisions are made? 

There are all sort of things that *can* be discussed now, but these don't
include unknown technical details. We won't be in a position to work out the
technical details until this summer.

 > I think a lot of
> the community would love firm answers to these questions, and few (any?) 
> are interested on making migration strategy commitments or publishing 
> migrations strategies on zope-coders' behalf, without firm direction 
> from the papal head.

See my remarks above.

>  >> 4) During 2003, developers will have three APIs to choose from (Zope 2,
>  >> CMF, Zope 3).  Will they know when to choose one versus the other?
>  >
>  >They have already been given some good guidelines.  I think that the 
> community
>  >could contribute by helping to package this information and make it 
> readily
>  >available.
> 
> It would be helpful for a list of these resources so the community knows 
> the extent of the working set you'd like packaged.  Would it be possible 
> to provide pointers, summarize, whatever a comprehensive list of these 
> guidelines?

Sure, please do. See messages posted by Steve Alexander in zope3-dev that
give guidelines for deciding when you develop for Zope 2 or Zope 3.

Jim

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