Re: Re: Zope 3 releases?

I'm not sure that "library" or "collection of libraries" is the right  
term for what we want to be.  I think we've been using it because it  
stands in sharp contrast to "application", which, BTW, isn't exactly  
what Zope 2 is.  I think these terms were useful to make some points,  
but neither is accurate. FWIW, I have a fairly open mind on this  
topic. Lots of good points are being made. :)

Jim

On Oct 7, 2007, at 5:13 PM, Martijn Faassen wrote:

> Jim Fulton wrote:
>> On Oct 7, 2007, at 6:25 AM, Lennart Regebro wrote:
> [snip]
>>>> - We need a *realistic* (especially wrt available resources)  
>>>> process
>>>> for managing releases.  There are 2 aspects of this.  We shouldn't
>>>> make plans for which there aren't enough resources.  We also
>>>> shouldn't plan significant tasks that people won't care enough to
>>>> work on.  I think the classic Zope 3.4 release is a good example  
>>>> of a
>>>> large effort that really wouldn't benefit many people, if any.
>>>
>>> Do you have a sort explanation on what is the missing resource?  
>>> Is it,
>>> as it was for 3.3, lack of people-hours with knowledge in fixing the
>>> last bugs?
>> I'm not entirely sure.  I just observe that this doesn't seem to  
>> be making much progress.
>
> I think it's one of the drawbacks of taking an ecosystem/libraries  
> approach instead of a application/framework style approach. An  
> application or framework typically is an integrated whole that has  
> a single version number. An ecosystem or set of libraries can be  
> integrated (which Zope 3 is) but everything evolves at different  
> rates and there's no single thing to install or talk about.
>
> I'm not saying an ecosystem approach is bad, if that's what Zope 3  
> wants to be. I do think that such an approach needs to be  
> supplemented by a framework approach (and I've been putting work  
> into one way to do that).
>
> If Zope 3 is an ecosystem, a "release" of Zope 3 the ecosystem  
> doesn't really make much sense. To follow the comparison with Linux  
> distribution, it's more like a "distribution" of an ecosystem. I'd  
> therefore suggest that the release of Zope 3.4, if it ever actually  
> happens, will be the last release of Zope 3 the application server  
> framework.
>
> I hope that besides Grok, some community will stand up that takes a  
> less radical approach to building an application server on top of  
> the Zope 3 ecosystem. People having existing applications in Zope 3  
> to maintain (like myself with the Document Library) will have a  
> need for it, and Grok doesn't suit everyone's tastes anyway,  
> especially people comfortable with existing Zope 3 practices. As I  
> said elsewhere, I suggest we call this project not "Zope 3" but  
> something else, to avoid confusion with the Zope ecosystem (and  
> also to avoid implying it's the clear successor to Zope 2. I think  
> we can safely say by now that's not how history went).
>
> Regards,
>
> Martijn
>
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--
Jim Fulton
Zope Corporation