Re: Fedora 40, Wayland, and ctwm

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On Mon, Feb 19, 2024 at 11:00=E2=80=AFAM Quentin Barnes <[email protected]>=
 wrote:

> On Sun, Feb 18, 2024 at 08:11:32AM -0500, Michael George wrote:
> > Hello everyone.
> >
> > I've been using CTWM since the 1990s, so about from the beginning.  At
> > work I run CTWM on Fedora, but I read that Fedora 40 is going to be all
> > Wayland.
>
> I'm in the same boat as you.  I've been using ctwm since the mid-'90s
> and Fedora has been my preferred desktop OS for the past several
> years.
>

I run Gentoo Linux at home, so I will probably have more time before I lose
my CTWM there.  However, I like having similar environments for home and
work.

> I searched the mailing list archives and I didn't find many posts
> > referencing Wayland.  Given that ctwm is a rather niche application, I
> > fear that it will not work in the Wayland world.
> >
> > Is it as simple as installing Xwayland and then continuing on as in the
> > good ol' days of X11R5?
>
> I'm concerned that Xwayland won't be a well-supported solution,
> especially for X11 programs that use window manager features of X11.
> Even if stability isn't an issue, I'm concerned about performance
> of all the additional layers.  And if I'm proved wrong on either or
> both counts, I'll be delighted!
>
> Aside from stability and performance concerns, I'm wondering what
> kind of limitations will be imposed on Xwayland programs that
> wouldn't be present under X11.  The limitations I've seen so far
> using Wayland programs annoy me.  I'm not sure if those are default
> limitations of Wayland and can be lifted if I just knew the right
> configuration changes to make, or if that's just the way things will
> be from now on.
>
> I'm hopeful that RPM Fusion or other third party repositories for
> Fedora will pick up Xorg server and utilities.  However, that would
> be a lot of work since all X11 programs would need to be picked up
> and maintained as well the X11 server, so I consider such a path,
> even if someone's willing to do it, just a stop-gap.
>

I agree with many of your concerns above.  I hope that other repos will
give us a bit more life with the apps we have used for decades.


> I'm also curious what would happen running FlatPaks with
> Wayland-only builds of programs running on top of an X11 server.
> Does anyone know off-hand?
>
> As possible medium- and long-term paths, I see for myself:
>
>    - Switch to a distro that'll support X11 for a longer term.
>      Right now I'm thinking RHEL or Debian.
>

RHEL has announced it will take the same path as Fedora with version 11.
However, 9 will be around for quite a while.  I am guessing that Alma and
Rocky will follow suit, but mabye not.


>    - Do what I can to encourage the community to port ctwm to Wayland.
>

Same here, but I'm not familiar with the amount of effort that may be
involved.


>    - Find a Wayland WM with all the features of ctwm that I like.  (Ha!)
>

Yeah, I have looked at other WM's over the years.  Nothing is quite like
CTWM, especially after the configurations I've become accustomed to using.

One other option is Wayland and the limited desktop environments isn't
sufficient for many users and there will be resistance.  Or, Wayland will
be improved.

> Thank you.
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"g=
mail_attr">On Mon, Feb 19, 2024 at 11:00=E2=80=AFAM Quentin Barnes &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div>=
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-=
left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">On Sun, Feb 18, 2024 at 0=
8:11:32AM -0500, Michael George wrote:<br>
&gt; Hello everyone.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; I&#39;ve been using CTWM since the 1990s, so about from the beginning.=
=C2=A0 At<br>
&gt; work I run CTWM on Fedora, but I read that Fedora 40 is going to be al=
l<br>
&gt; Wayland.<br>
<br>
I&#39;m in the same boat as you.=C2=A0 I&#39;ve been using ctwm since the m=
id-&#39;90s<br>
and Fedora has been my preferred desktop OS for the past several<br>
years.<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I run Gentoo Linux at home, so I=
 will probably have more time before I lose my CTWM there.=C2=A0 However, I=
 like having similar environments for home and work.</div><div><br></div><b=
lockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-le=
ft:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">

&gt; I searched the mailing list archives and I didn&#39;t find many posts<=
br>
&gt; referencing Wayland.=C2=A0 Given that ctwm is a rather niche applicati=
on, I<br>
&gt; fear that it will not work in the Wayland world.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Is it as simple as installing Xwayland and then continuing on as in th=
e<br>
&gt; good ol&#39; days of X11R5?<br>
<br>
I&#39;m concerned that Xwayland won&#39;t be a well-supported solution,<br>
especially for X11 programs that use window manager features of X11.<br>
Even if stability isn&#39;t an issue, I&#39;m concerned about performance<b=
r>
of all the additional layers.=C2=A0 And if I&#39;m proved wrong on either o=
r<br>
both counts, I&#39;ll be delighted!<br>
<br>
Aside from stability and performance concerns, I&#39;m wondering what<br>
kind of limitations will be imposed on Xwayland programs that<br>
wouldn&#39;t be present under X11.=C2=A0 The limitations I&#39;ve seen so f=
ar<br>
using Wayland programs annoy me.=C2=A0 I&#39;m not sure if those are defaul=
t<br>
limitations of Wayland and can be lifted if I just knew the right<br>
configuration changes to make, or if that&#39;s just the way things will<br=
>
be from now on.<br>
<br>
I&#39;m hopeful that RPM Fusion or other third party repositories for<br>
Fedora will pick up Xorg server and utilities.=C2=A0 However, that would<br=
>
be a lot of work since all X11 programs would need to be picked up<br>
and maintained as well the X11 server, so I consider such a path,<br>
even if someone&#39;s willing to do it, just a stop-gap.<br>
</blockquote><div>=C2=A0</div><div>I agree with many of your concerns above=
.=C2=A0 I hope that other repos will give us a bit more life with the apps =
we have used for decades.</div><div>=C2=A0<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gm=
ail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,=
204,204);padding-left:1ex">
I&#39;m also curious what would happen running FlatPaks with<br>
Wayland-only builds of programs running on top of an X11 server.<br>
Does anyone know off-hand?<br>
<br>
As possible medium- and long-term paths, I see for myself:<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0- Switch to a distro that&#39;ll support X11 for a longer term=
.<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Right now I&#39;m thinking RHEL or Debian.<br></blockqu=
ote><div><br></div><div>RHEL has announced it will take the same path as Fe=
dora with version 11.=C2=A0 However, 9 will be around for quite a while.=C2=
=A0 I am guessing that Alma and Rocky will follow suit, but mabye not.</div=
><div>=C2=A0<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px=
 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">

=C2=A0 =C2=A0- Do what I can to encourage the community to port ctwm to Way=
land.<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Same here, but I&#39;m not famili=
ar with the amount of effort that may be involved.</div><div>=C2=A0<br></di=
v><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;borde=
r-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">

=C2=A0 =C2=A0- Find a Wayland WM with all the features of ctwm that I like.=
=C2=A0 (Ha!)<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Yeah, I have looked at oth=
er WM&#39;s over the years.=C2=A0 Nothing is quite like CTWM, especially af=
ter the configurations I&#39;ve become accustomed to using. <br></div><div>=
<br></div><div>One other option is Wayland and the limited desktop environm=
ents isn&#39;t sufficient for many users and there will be resistance.=C2=
=A0 Or, Wayland will be improved.</div><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"=
gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(20=
4,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
&gt; Thank you.<br>
</blockquote></div></div>

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