Re: Your future plans? (Wayland)

I'm a bit late to this discussion and may have missed some of the suggestio=
ns,=0A=
but my understanding is that there is a more-or-less-almost-workable generi=
c solution for running any existing Xorg-based window manager without havin=
g a full=A0Xorg server running,=A0 =A0*and* without re-writing the window-m=
anager source code to do compositing,  =A0which is to use Xwayland in rootf=
ul mode to emulate Xorg server.=0A=
Here is the article which describes how to do it for fvwm3 and implies simi=
lar can be done for any other window manager=0A=
=0A=
=0A=
https://www.reddit.com/r/unixporn/comments/srb6km/labwcfvwm3_futureproofing=
_your_window_manager_a/?share_id=3DUtn8ywo7G3ojfILNVN1cz&utm_name=3Dandroid=
css=0A=
=0A=
I tried to set this up on an old system of mine and the experiment ended in=
 total failure for a different reason :=0A=
https://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/slackware-14/xorg-development-effo=
rt-slowing-in-favour-of-wayland-4175731955/page16.html#post6490219=0A=
=0A=
but there are other articles elsewhere all implying it should work.=0A=
=0A=
On the pro side of the equation,     this is completely independent of what=
 distribution you happen to be running  (although you will probably have to=
 acquire and install extra software).      I don't run any kind of distribu=
tion-provided Desktop Environment such as Gnome or KDE,         and I would=
 guess most or all sawfish users don't either  -   why would you do so if s=
awfish manages windows?=0A=
=0A=
On the con side,    and it is probably a big one for sawfish users  --  saw=
fish customizations and xxx.jl lisp functions may not work as expected.    =
and even if they do,    the look and feel will be rather different.      Ho=
w different is what I wanted to find out but currently do not have a comput=
er on which I can experiment.=0A=
=0A=
Has any sawfish user tried this and if so with what success?=0A=
=0A=
Cheers,     John Lumby=0A=
=0A=
_________________________________________________________________=0A=
=0A=
=0A=
From:=A0Trevor Cordes <[email protected]>=0A=
Sent:=A0March 29, 2024 3:50 AM=0A=
To:=A0Robert 'Bobby' Zenz <[email protected]>=0A=
Cc:[email protected] <[email protected]>=0A=
Subject:=A0Re: [Sawfish] Your future plans? (Wayland)=0A=
=A0=0A=
On 2024-03-28 Robert 'Bobby' Zenz wrote:=0A=
>=0A=
> You got some terminology mixed up there. GNOME has two "session=0A=
> options", X11 and Wayland. They **greatly** favor Wayland because=0A=
> "pixel perfect frames" or something. GTK can either draw to X11 or=0A=
> Wayland. What happens when you have GNOME-Wayland running and open a=0A=
> program which still uses X11 is that it is attached as Xwayland=0A=
> client. Basically a X11 server alone for that client. So it works,=0A=
> however, Xwayland is quiet limited in what it can do and not. For=0A=
> example, it can't sport window managers as the other windows are not=0A=
> exposed to programs.=0A=
>=0A=
> However, nothing stops you from using a different desktop environment,=0A=
> even a "cobbled together" one on top of a "bare" X11 session. GNOME is=0A=
> not the center of the Linux Desktop Universe, even if they try hard.=0A=
=0A=
Thank you guys for your input.=A0 I don't reddit, and no place seems as=0A=
apt as the sawfish mailing list to talk about sawfish.=A0 So here we are,=
=0A=
circle-jerk and all!=0A=
=0A=
Yes, I understood the no-x-for-gnome-session vs no-x difference.=A0 But,=0A=
and I should have mentioned this: what got me antsy in the first place=0A=
is before the F41 gnome-x-session removal, F40 (which will be released=0A=
soon) is doing kde-x-session removal!=A0 Reading about them ditching x=0A=
for kde, and then gnome in rapid succession gets my radar dinging.=0A=
It seems obvious that RH/Fedora are making huge pushes to just ditch X=0A=
completely.=A0 And just like with systemd, RH sets the tone for the=0A=
entire Linux world, and Fedora is the advance guard.=0A=
=0A=
(And no, I am not running sawfish with GNOME DE, I've been an XFCE guy=0A=
ever since GNOME went off the rails with UI design.)=0A=
=0A=
I am glad to hear from you kind folk, though, that others concur the=0A=
wording means we can still enjoy X and XFCE/sawfish login sessions for a=0A=
while to come, at least through F41.=A0 But the news articles about these=
=0A=
things are, perhaps purposely, vague as to our fate as the lowly "other"=0A=
DEs.=0A=
=0A=
As a dev and longtime RH user I can see where it's all headed.=A0 Within=0A=
short order they will deprecate any sort of X session at login.=A0 Make=0A=
you use -compat pacakges.=A0 Then 1 or 2 releases after that they'll just=
=0A=
remove X support completely from GTK or Qt or a major app.=A0 Ya, I'm=0A=
speculating, but I've seen it all before, so I'd bet money I'm right.=0A=
=0A=
The only question is speed/timing.=A0 I think they want to do it in 4-8=0A=
Fedora releases (so 2-4 years).=A0 That's something we need to start=0A=
planning for.=A0 If it really is 10-15 years out, then, yes, I can=0A=
happily put my head back in the sand.=A0 I really hope you're more right=0A=
than I.=0A=
=0A=
> I always liked how the implementation of Arcan worked, because that=0A=
> sounded much more sane.=0A=
=0A=
I'll look into it, but my first impression of that odd website is: "uh=0A=
what does this mean to me?".=A0 What I really wanted to hear was that=0A=
some has-sawfish-mentality programmers are already working on a highly-=0A=
configurable/programmable compositor/wm for Wayland.=A0 Doesn't have to be=
=0A=
sawfish or sawfish people, just people who want more than the=0A=
LCD Windows-like nonsense everyone else seems happy with.=0A=
=0A=
It's a small sample size so far, but if the 2 responders so far don't=0A=
have an answer on the tip of their tongue, there may not be an answer=0A=
(one of my fears)...=0A=
=0A=
> That last part is, ufff. Wayland is a moving target, and it is a=0A=
> fragmented target, too (compositor specific features, dumb=0A=
> client library decisions, ...). So "being done" like with Sawfish here=0A=
> is at least a decade off, maybe longer. That's not encouraging, I=0A=
> guess.=0A=
=0A=
It will go faster than you think if the big players with an agenda push=0A=
it hard.=A0 It's already pretty clear in every article's main talking=0A=
points that it's not so much logic as emotion being pushed here.=A0 Every=
=0A=
single promoter of Wayland, and thus basically every article writer,=0A=
has to include the obligatory "x is insecure", "x is old", "x is slow".=0A=
Yet we never hear anyone define "insecure", and the rare articles to=0A=
address it focus on the keystroke issue.=A0 Which to me is a non-issue=0A=
because if you can't trust your distro's other packages to not do evil=0A=
stuff, then grabbing your keystrokes is the least of your problems.=A0 (We=
=0A=
are dealing with linux desktops here, not Android phones.)=A0 As for old,=
=0A=
I prefer old.=A0 And slow, ya on my Ryzen 9 I really care about that.=0A=
"Slow" hasn't been an issue for 15 years.=0A=
=0A=
In fact, it's the same tack taken when systemd was trying to takeover.=0A=
It's disingenuous, but it shapes perception and thus becomes truth to a=0A=
critical mass of people.=A0 Heck, even systemd had more pushback than=0A=
Wayland seems to be getting!=A0 Maybe _they_ learned from their mistakes.=
=0A=
=0A=
> Also, I don't like to think of myself as a helpless victim, because=0A=
> that's not true. I can always walk away.=0A=
=0A=
Ya, of course, but a walk away from sawfish, or Linux entirely, comes=0A=
with great pain, and as you so aptly referred to, this really equals=0A=
time.=A0 And I have better things to do with my time, same as the sawfish=
=0A=
devs.=A0 For now.=A0 In the end it may come down to what requires the least=
=0A=
amount of pain/time.=A0 I have a philosophy: no change for change's sake.=
=0A=
Or the Jerry-McGuire philosophy: Show me the features (rationale).=A0 Not=
=0A=
a single thing Wayland offers makes my life better or saves me time.=0A=
=0A=
> be to simply keep using X11. Also remember that there is the BSD=0A=
> community, they didn't seem so keen on Wayland, either.=0A=
=0A=
Yes, good point: BSD may provide a redoubt against Wayland.=A0 I haven't=0A=
researched it yet, but it would seem to me that Wayland may not even be=0A=
possible on BSD unless they decided to change a bunch of other things=0A=
to be more Linux-like.=A0 And last I checked that was pretty taboo with=0A=
that bunch.=0A=
=0A=
And the distro-holdouts (the Devuans of Wayland) + BSD may offer=0A=
lower-time-investment solutions when Fedora does pull the X plug.=0A=
Whilst I currently have a one-box-does-most approach to my=0A=
server/workstation, I could foresee a 2-box approach or a Wayland-less=0A=
GUI host + Fedora-on-vm-for-everything-else solution.=A0 And that, as you=
=0A=
pointed out, should be viable for a decade?!=0A=
=0A=
--=0A=
Sawfish ML=0A=
=0A=

-- 
Sawfish ML