Re: Re: Ok. Heh, is there still an smtp-based list out here:D

Holly Bostick wrote:
> David Haley schreef:
>   
>> If the user isn't ready for the OS then perhaps that's precisely because the OS
>> isn't ready for the user. 
>>     
> But we're not starting even. The OS may not be "ready" *for users who
> have been trained for some 20 years in the Windows way of doing things
> (and I've used Windows since 3.11, but 95 and later users don't even
> have my experience with non-GUI applications--WordPerfect was *great*
> under DOS), and Linux for the most part has resisted the temptation to
> deform its design to compensate for the fact that the userbase has been
> crippled for all that time.
>
> The jury is still kinda out as to whether that's a "good idea" in that
> it's not good for marketability, but it certainly is admirable in the
> sense of having the courage of your (design) convictions.
>   
There are a few like Symphony, trying something different and 
user-oriented from scratch. The problem is that like OS X, most of these 
ventures will give us things to learn about how things need to run, but 
they will each go to extremes that make them undesirable. Intel's old 
desire to move everything to Itanium is a good example. Staying a few 
steps behind, but with some pragmatism, has great advantages, even if it 
does mean you are behind the curve.

Linux is creeping along, gaining a desktop and small business at a time. 
It does not, and will not, have marketability like Windows and OS X 
have. If it gets that, what that currently makes it good to use will be 
lost along the way? An example is that we get neat features each Gnome 
and KDE release, that can be used independently of the DEs themselves, 
and they are cooperating on many future features (and current ones that 
don't play nice with each other).

While this sort of thing does mean there are always incomplete features, 
it also leads to swiss army knives like Konqueror (transparent ftp, 
sftp, cd ripping, samba, etc.), that Windows will likely never catch up 
with, that greatly enhance productivity, and reduce handling time and 
hassle for tasks.

It's not there in audio and video editing, either (I'll include photo), 
but then there's MythTV, VLC (and VLS), and other video systems (just 
today I've been tasked with researching to make a small security camera 
system, and the FOSS options are mind-boggling!) that, while heavy on 
initial setup, make Windows MCE look like something from a gumball 
machine, rather than a useful piece of software.

No OS is ready for every user, and no user is ready for every OS. My 
mouse (evdev still needs work, and I'm not buying Logitech again unless 
they change their ways) and years of training keep on Windows--because I 
can keep it running and still mess with it. I use Linux as much as 
Windows now, but am not ready for it to replace Win2k. I'd probably 
consider moving up if MS hadn't made so many obvious artificial 
limitations on the new OSes. Chances are when I *need* to use something 
that requires XP or Vista, I'll quit Windows for Windows under VMWare.
>> I think that argument can go both ways. The main
>> problem I see with Linux and the "normal user" is any kind of system
>> maintenance. For most normal use (email, office, web, chat) Linux is just fine
>> -- depending, of course, on the distribution you choose to use. I might not
>> recommend Gentoo or straight Debian for complete Linux beginners, for instance.
>>
>>     
>
> Well, as a Gentoo user, I'm not completely sure about that. Depends on
> the user, tbh. I, on the other hand, wouldn't recommend Ubuntu to a
> beginner, as I, who have used RedHat, Mandrake, several flavors of
> Debian, SuSE, Slackware, and Gentoo, couldn't get anything to work using
> it. Yet 'everyone' says it's the most trouble-free newbie distro to be had.
>
> OK. <shrug>
>   
*nods*

For a simple no-hassle desktop, I'd go for PCLOS. Ubuntu's cool, but the 
competition it encourages tends to be superior for daily use, IMO.
> But this all comes down to the fact that if you are your computer's
> administrator, you should know how to administrate it effectively for
> your needs. The problem is that everyone is trained by Windows into
> believing that the OS itself is adequate to do its own administration,
> which-- if Windows is meant to be the example of this philosophy-- it is
> not. But we're talking about a userbase that truly believes that
> "reformat and reinstall" is a perfectly normal, acceptable, and proper
> repair strategy for all problems great and small.
>   
It can be on Linux, too :). The difference then is that you copy your 
/home and /etc first, and you have *everything* you need. In addition, 
the reformat and reinstall will likely take under an hour, including 
repopulating bits of /etc that you didn't screw up, and figuring out 
what exactly you did for ndiswrapper however-many-months ago...

In many cases, though, just /home is enough, especially with LCDs or 
well-researched hardware(since there is generally no need to hassle with 
X to get decent refresh rates, and Ralink and Realtek networking just 
works).
> So it's likely only to be expected that asking such a userbase to learn
> even the most minimal list of commands necessary to administer a machine
> would be considered unreasonable by those users.
>   
I can't let it slip by: there is no list of commands. There is Google :).

Most people, though, don't actually need to do much administering.
> But that doesn't mean that it is in fact an unreasonable thing to ask.
>
> It just means that the users think it is.
>
> People used to think that the world was flat, too, but it was still
> round, the whole time.
>
> Holly
Can't be!

-cerbie

P.S.
And hey, who runs a linux install with the default interfaces in this 
community?

Well, I do, but that's just because I can't keep an E17 CVS build 
working for more than a few days at a time ;).

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