Re: Discussing issues

On Tue, Apr 15, 2003 at 12:55:30PM -0400, Havoc Pennington wrote:
>On Tue, Apr 15, 2003 at 12:23:59PM -0400, David Dawes wrote: 
>> Rather than us trying to guess what you mean by "platform", it
>> might help if you provided us with a more detailed description of
>> what you have in mind.
>> 
>> I suspect that it is differently focused than what XFree86 has
>> usually considered its domain, but I can only guess unless you
>> explain what you mean in more detail.
>> 
>> XFree86's domain has traditionally been the X infrastructure, which
>> does include all of what you mention above, and implemented on a
>> wide range of platforms.  I'm trying to understand what else you'd
>> like to push down into "X", what parts you'd like to eliminate,
>> and how that fits in with the needs of all XFree86 users (not just
>> those using it on the popular platform of the day).
>
>Most of the stuff Keith is working on falls into this category:
>RENDER, Xr/Xc, fontconfig, Xft, Xcursor, Xrandr, XFIXES, and future
>plans for double buffering, magnification/thumbnailing, and
>alpha channel in the server.
>
>Then the stuff from freedesktop.org and other ad hoc specification
>writers: icon themes, desktop menus, XEMBED, XSETTINGS, MIME system,
>EWMH, Xdnd, UTF8_STRING, etc.
>
>Software from freedesktop.org: D-BUS, pkg-config, etc.
>
>Then the stuff from X.org: STSF, MAS, etc.
>
>Then there's some random stuff under other umbrellas: gstreamer, arts,
>CSL for sound, for example.
>
>Future scope is essentially: whenever having multiple implementations
>of Foo in the toolkits/desktops causes significant user/developer
>problems, ideally we refactor it so Foo is down one more layer in the
>dependency chain:
>
>  GNOME     KDE   Enlightenment   Java/Swing    OO.org, Mozilla, WINE...
>    \       |           |               /
>     \      |          /               /
>       --------------------------------
>                     |
>                   X Platform                   <--- refactored stuff 
>                                                     moves to live here
>
>To get GNOME and KDE to refactor stuff, they need to have faith in an
>organization there that's going to end up owning it.
>
>As far as elimination, I don't see the need to delete anything from
>existence, but I do want some way to "bless" something like the font
>subsystem, which simply means the key core developers feel like they
>agree on it and it was selected via a fair process.
>
>Provided we keep back compat, which is essential, I don't think this
>impacts users who don't want to use the popular platform of the day.
>If you want to use twm then great. You don't have to use the
>complicated desktops. And in practice people have been doing things 
>like extending xterm to use Xft. That's great too.
>
>Or does "popular platform" mean Linux vs. BSD? I don't think this has
>any impact on that whatsoever, GNOME, KDE, etc. are portable all the
>way up to the top,
>e.g. http://www.gnomedesktop.com/article.php?sid=1053&mode=thread&order=0&thold=1
>That isn't going to change.

Thanks for elaborating.  I think I have a clearer picture of what you're
getting at.

What you haven't really addressed is why the structure of XFree86 needs
to change for *you* to achieve your vision.  Follow up your vision, do
the work, and let it stand on its merits against competing solutions
(should they exist).  There is nothing about XFree86 that is stopping
*you* from doing that.

It might be old-fashioned of me, but I subscribe to the view that
competing solutions lead to better solutions.  Basically, if you want
your solutions to become accepted as "the" solution, then *you* have to
convince those who are going to use it that it is the solution they
should be using.  Having it somehow automatically "blessed" by creating
it within XFree86 is not the right way to do it.

If part of this is a policital issue of needing some "independent" body
to provide a venue for GNOME and KDE to cooperate, then go form one.

If it's an issue of blessed standards, do as Jim already suggested, and
shop around for the standards body (X.Org, FSG, or one you create
yourself) that will bless the ones you're interested in.

David
-- 
David Dawes
Founder/committer/developer                     The XFree86 Project
www.XFree86.org/~dawes