Re: Re: Fabricated responses
Alexander Terekhov <[email protected]>
| Newsgroups | gmane.comp.xfree86.forum |
|---|---|
| Message-ID | <[email protected]> |
Richard Stallman wrote: > > > Eben Moglen wrote to me, about those quotations: > > > > It's clearly a fabrication. > > Really? How fascinating. > > http://www.linuxdevices.com/files/misc/asay-paper.pdf > > I've been reminded that that essay garbled things. > (I have no personal recollection of it myself.) And, of course, both you and Eben have lost all emails from May 26, 2000, and May 27, 2000, respectively. Right? > It looks like you have come across some of what was garbled. Like this? <chuckles> http://web.archive.org/web/20030726041121/http://www.oksid.ch/license/rms.html --- Here is a copy of a discussion that I had with RMS about the GPL. This was a private discussion, because RMS has rejected my proposal to talk about it on gnu.misc.discuss. That's the reason why I have removed all RMS's answers. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From - Fri Feb 28 13:38:08 2003 X-Mozilla-Status: 0001 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Message-ID: <[email protected]> Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 17:46:14 +0100 From: Jean-Marc Lienher Organization: O'ksi'D X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [fr] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.10-4GB i586) X-Accept-Language: fr-CH, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: [email protected] Subject: OSI attacks GPL Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello, I would like to have your opinion about this article : http://www.linuxjournal.com/article.php?sid=6366 The official FSF's opinion is "OSI is wrong". Do you have a personal opinion about that ? Maybe can we talk about it on gnu.misc.discuss ? Best regards, Jean-Marc -- http://www.oksid.ch -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From - Fri Feb 28 13:39:04 2003 Return-Path: Received: from mta3n.bluewin.ch (172.21.1.232) by mss2n.bluewin.ch (Bluewin AG 6.7.015) id 3E3E90E000AE229D for [email protected]; Wed, 19 Feb 2003 11:51:16 +0100 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org (199.232.76.164) by mta3n.bluewin.ch (Bluewin AG 6.7.015) id 3E0EFAE700C64339 for [email protected]; Wed, 19 Feb 2003 11:51:16 +0100 Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.10) id 18lRoi-0007J8-00; Wed, 19 Feb 2003 05:51:08 -0500 From: Richard Stallman To: Jean-Marc Lienher In-reply-to: <[email protected]> (message from Jean-Marc Lienher on Tue, 18 Feb 2003 17:46:14 +0100) Subject: Re: OSI attacks GPL Reply-to: [email protected] References: <[email protected]> Message-Id: Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 05:51:08 -0500 X-Mozilla-Status: 8013 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 5687 I would like to have your opinion about this article : http://www.linuxjournal.com/article.php?sid=6366 Line removed -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From - Fri Feb 28 13:40:07 2003 X-Mozilla-Status: 0001 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Message-ID: <[email protected]> Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 11:54:00 +0100 From: Jean-Marc Lienher Organization: O'ksi'D X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [fr] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.10-4GB i586) X-Accept-Language: fr-CH, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: [email protected] Subject: Re: OSI attacks GPL References: <[email protected]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Richard Stallman a écrit : > > I would like to have your opinion about this article : > http://www.linuxjournal.com/article.php?sid=6366 > > Line removed Here it is: copy of the full plain text linuxjournal's article removed -- http://www.oksid.ch -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From - Fri Feb 28 13:41:00 2003 Return-Path: Received: from mta9n.bluewin.ch (172.21.1.169) by mss2n.bluewin.ch (Bluewin AG 6.7.015) id 3E3E90E000B4EC80 for [email protected]; Wed, 19 Feb 2003 22:22:34 +0100 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org (199.232.76.164) by mta9n.bluewin.ch (Bluewin AG 6.7.015) id 3E0C295500CC0D07 for [email protected]; Wed, 19 Feb 2003 22:22:32 +0100 Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.10) id 18lbfe-0003Z7-00; Wed, 19 Feb 2003 16:22:26 -0500 From: Richard Stallman To: [email protected] Subject: Re: OSI attacks GPL Reply-to: [email protected] Message-Id: Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 16:22:26 -0500 X-Mozilla-Status: 8013 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 5694 Line removed Line removed Line removed Line removed Line removed Line removed -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From - Fri Feb 28 13:42:03 2003 X-Mozilla-Status: 0001 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Message-ID: <[email protected]> Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 07:32:50 +0100 From: Jean-Marc Lienher Organization: O'ksi'D X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [fr] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.10-4GB i586) X-Accept-Language: fr-CH, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: [email protected] Subject: Re: OSI attacks GPL References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Richard Stallman a écrit : > > Line removed > Line removed > Line removed > Line removed > Line removed > Line removed Yes I agree that's true for static linking. But what about dynamic linking ? A dynamically compiled program is not a combined work until it runs. -- http://www.oksid.ch -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From - Fri Feb 28 13:42:44 2003 Return-Path: Received: from mta4n.bluewin.ch (172.21.1.233) by mss2n.bluewin.ch (Bluewin AG 6.7.015) id 3E3E90E000CCB84F for [email protected]; Fri, 21 Feb 2003 22:44:35 +0100 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org (199.232.76.164) by mta4n.bluewin.ch (Bluewin AG 6.7.015) id 3E007DC900F0EA3C for [email protected]; Fri, 21 Feb 2003 22:44:32 +0100 Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.10) id 18mKy3-0005vY-00; Fri, 21 Feb 2003 16:44:27 -0500 From: Richard Stallman To: Jean-Marc Lienher In-reply-to: <[email protected]> (message from Jean-Marc Lienher on Thu, 20 Feb 2003 07:32:50 +0100) Subject: Re: OSI attacks GPL Reply-to: [email protected] References: <[email protected]> Message-Id: Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 16:44:27 -0500 X-Mozilla-Status: 8013 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 5704 Yes I agree that's true for static linking. But what about dynamic linking ? Line removed Line removed Line removed Line removed -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From - Fri Feb 28 13:43:20 2003 X-Mozilla-Status: 0001 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Message-ID: <[email protected]> Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2003 11:31:46 +0100 From: Jean-Marc Lienher Organization: O'ksi'D X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [fr] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.10-4GB i586) X-Accept-Language: fr-CH, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: [email protected] Subject: Re: OSI attacks GPL References: <[email protected]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Richard Stallman a écrit : > > Yes I agree that's true for static linking. > But what about dynamic linking ? > > Line removed > Line removed > Line removed With dynamic linking it's allways the end user who decides to make the linking. The end user can write his own library which is compatible with the GPL library. > > Line removed Do you mean that FAQ ? : ------------------------------------------------------------------ If a library is released under the GPL (not the LGPL), does that mean that any program which uses it has to be under the GPL? Yes, because the program as it is actually run includes the library. ------------------------------------------------------------------- I don't understand it. I don't see anything in the GPL that says that I can't distribute a work which contains no portion of the GPL library. Is this an implicit rule of copyright law ? -- http://www.oksid.ch -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From - Fri Feb 28 13:44:03 2003 Return-Path: Received: from mta3n.bluewin.ch (172.21.1.232) by mss2n.bluewin.ch (Bluewin AG 6.7.015) id 3E3E90E000DC302E for [email protected]; Sun, 23 Feb 2003 15:57:42 +0100 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org (199.232.76.164) by mta3n.bluewin.ch (Bluewin AG 6.7.015) id 3E0EFAE700DBF7D6 for [email protected]; Sun, 23 Feb 2003 15:57:41 +0100 Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.10) id 18mxZP-0005Kw-00; Sun, 23 Feb 2003 09:57:35 -0500 From: Richard Stallman To: Jean-Marc Lienher In-reply-to: <[email protected]> (message from Jean-Marc Lienher on Sat, 22 Feb 2003 11:31:46 +0100) Subject: Re: OSI attacks GPL Reply-to: [email protected] References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> Message-Id: Date: Sun, 23 Feb 2003 09:57:35 -0500 X-Mozilla-Status: 8013 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 5715 > Line removed > Line removed > Line removed With dynamic linking it's allways the end user who decides to make the linking. Line removed Line removed Line removed Line removed The end user can write his own library which is compatible with the GPL library. Line removed -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From - Fri Feb 28 13:44:31 2003 X-Mozilla-Status: 0001 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Message-ID: <[email protected]> Date: Sun, 23 Feb 2003 21:28:25 +0100 From: Jean-Marc Lienher Organization: O'ksi'D X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [fr] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.10-4GB i586) X-Accept-Language: fr-CH, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: [email protected] Subject: Re: OSI attacks GPL References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Richard Stallman a écrit : > > > Line removed > > Line removed > > Line removed > > With dynamic linking it's allways the end user who decides to > make the linking. > > Line removed > Line removed The end user can allways decide to not run the program. I've searched for "combined" in the copyright law and I've not found it (except for audio devices). In the LGPL you define "a combined work" as "a derivative of the original library". When you say combined should I understand derivative ? > > Line removed > Line removed That one ?: -------------------------------------------------------------------- Can I use the GPL for a plug-in for a non-free program? ... If the program dynamically links plug-ins, and they make function calls to each other and share data structures, we believe they form a single program, so plug-ins must be treated as extensions to the main program. This means that linking the GPL-covered plug-in with the main program would violate the GPL. ... -------------------------------------------------------------------- Does it mean that all Solaris programs are copyrighted by SUN ? Does it mean that Microsoft, Sun, HP, SGI ... can forbid a program on their OS if they don't like it ? A dynamic program forms a single program only when the user runs it. The user doesn't distribute it in that form. And with the GPL you must release a program under the GPL only if you distribute it. The end user doesn't violate the GPL. And the author of the program doesn't violate the GPL too, because he doesn't distribute any portion of the library inside his program. In that article you said that you have a good argument to say that dynamic linking creates a combined work: http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=00/05/01/1052216&mode=nocomment Is this the one in the FAQ about plug-in ? You also said that : A license can say that we will treat a certain kind of work as if it were not derivative, even if the courts think it is. The GPL says : ----------------------------------------------- a "work based on the Program" means either the Program or any derivative work under copyright law: that is to say, a work containing the Program or a portion of it, either verbatim or with modifications and/or translated into another language. -------------------------------------------------- It seems that the GPL treats a program which doesn't contain any portion of a GPL library as if it was not derivative. At least, for a non-lawyer it makes things clear that a derivative work must contain a portion of a library to be derivative. -- http://www.oksid.ch -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From - Fri Feb 28 13:45:19 2003 Return-Path: Received: from mta3n.bluewin.ch (172.21.1.232) by mss2n.bluewin.ch (Bluewin AG 6.7.015) id 3E3E90E000FB33B1 for [email protected]; Wed, 26 Feb 2003 10:47:17 +0100 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org (199.232.76.164) by mta3n.bluewin.ch (Bluewin AG 6.7.015) id 3E0EFAE700EB9EDC for [email protected]; Wed, 26 Feb 2003 10:47:17 +0100 Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.10) id 18ny9e-0001R5-00; Wed, 26 Feb 2003 04:47:10 -0500 From: Richard Stallman To: Jean-Marc Lienher In-reply-to: <[email protected]> (message from Jean-Marc Lienher on Sun, 23 Feb 2003 21:28:25 +0100) Subject: Re: OSI attacks GPL Reply-to: [email protected] References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> Message-Id: Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 04:47:10 -0500 X-Mozilla-Status: 8011 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 5742 > Line removed > Line removed The end user can allways decide to not run the program. Line removed -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From - Fri Feb 28 13:45:35 2003 Return-Path: Received: from mta11n.bluewin.ch (172.21.1.231) by mss2n.bluewin.ch (Bluewin AG 6.7.015) id 3E3E90E000FB340D for [email protected]; Wed, 26 Feb 2003 10:47:26 +0100 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org (199.232.76.164) by mta11n.bluewin.ch (Bluewin AG 6.7.015) id 3E0C331C00F0509E for [email protected]; Wed, 26 Feb 2003 10:47:24 +0100 Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.10) id 18ny9t-0001Sk-00; Wed, 26 Feb 2003 04:47:25 -0500 From: Richard Stallman To: Jean-Marc Lienher In-reply-to: <[email protected]> (message from Jean-Marc Lienher on Sun, 23 Feb 2003 21:28:25 +0100) Subject: Re: OSI attacks GPL Reply-to: [email protected] References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> Message-Id: Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 04:47:25 -0500 X-Mozilla-Status: 8013 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 5743 That one ?: -------------------------------------------------------------------- Can I use the GPL for a plug-in for a non-free program? ... If the program dynamically links plug-ins, and they make function calls to each other and share data Does it mean that all Solaris programs are copyrighted by SUN ? Line removed Line removed Line removed Line removed -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From - Fri Feb 28 13:46:10 2003 X-Mozilla-Status: 0001 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Message-ID: <[email protected]> Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 10:56:42 +0100 From: Jean-Marc Lienher Organization: O'ksi'D X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [fr] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.10-4GB i586) X-Accept-Language: fr-CH, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: [email protected] Subject: Re: OSI attacks GPL References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Richard Stallman a écrit : > > That one ?: > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > Can I use the GPL for a plug-in for a non-free program? > ... > If the program dynamically links plug-ins, and they make function calls > to each other and share data > > Does it mean that all Solaris programs are copyrighted by SUN ? > > Line removed > > Line removed > Line removed > Line removed You confirm what I'm thinking : you don't have any valid arguments. -- http://www.oksid.ch -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This is the end of the discussion since RMS has let it drop. --- regards, alexander.