RE: Re: bug free cowboy camping

Jerry,
                Well, It DOES have an effect on mammals. Cats were mentioned in several things I was reading. It is BAD for cats. And especial children. Birds, while not a mammal, are affected. Aquatic fish, and other aquatic invertebrates are strongly affected. Incorrectly treated clothing, or, clothing that was just sprayed and never rinsed into a bucket to be UV treated (sunlight is the easiest,) can release lethal (to fish and invertibrates) amounts into the water as you wade through it.  I lived through some of the worst DDT poisoning possible here in NY. They killed the blackflys, yes, by dropping solid blocks of the stuff in the swamps. They killed off loons, eagles, osprey, kingfishers, and many other birds, too, when they couldn’t nest without crushing their own eggs, by killing off the invertebrates that fed on the blackfly larva... their food supply for the year(a simplification,) by killing the minnows that ate…well, you get my point. I prefer to think we have learned a hard lesson 60 years after they, my government, did that to me and my environment. Use Permethrin with caution. It is hard to understand how everything works and is related to other things. But, yes, Permethrin does mitigate the risk of many diseases and other pathogens. It is difficult to define where one risk outweighs another type of risk.

http://www.epa.gov/oppsrrd1/REDs/factsheets/permethrin_fs.htm is one such document outlining increased danger of cancer or LOC as they term it. Loose Permethrin, ie non-bonded Permethrin can increase the risk of neurological disorders and other problems.  Rashes and other problems are reported in medical journals on-line. Again, this is usually from non-bonded Permethrin; or direct contact with the chemical itself. Not with correctly treated clothing.

                So, it is not accurate to say it has no effect on mammals. This is an oversimplification. DDT has no effect on people. This does NOT mean it is safe to use.
                Now, this is not to say I am against using it. I treat my cloths where applicable. I wear nylon pants and merino wool shirts for hiking/camping, These get treated, dried and rinsed in a bucket. The excess gets painted on the foundation to keep ants and termites down. Or, gets dumped on the driveway where the sun can UV it. It does NOT go in the washer without completing these steps. I do not just dump excess on the lawn (eventually drainig into the pond.) Permethrin does NOT get broken down by sewage treatment, so it does not go down the drain. I do not apply it to fleeces. These are usually recycled PET and resist take up. Polyesters are rather iffy.

                The point is, you have to know what you are doing to safely and successfully use Permethrin. Part of safe usage is understanding the side effects and potential problems of what you are dealing with. I never directly recommend it, rather, I recommend a person educate themselves on its usage.

                My thoughts only . . .
                                jdm

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Jerry Goller
Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2013 9:03 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: [BackpackingLight] Re: bug free cowboy camping





I assume the clothes have been allowed to dry completely before wearing them. Since permethrin has no effect on mammals, what happens if the “excess” isn’t washed off?

Jerry

From: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Jim Marco
Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2013 6:30 AM
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Subject: RE: [BackpackingLight] Re: bug free cowboy camping


Hi Coosa,
Be careful. You should wash any excess permethrin off any cloths that are in contact with your skin. It does absorb, slowly, like anything else, through the skin. Ground cloths are iffy. If you use tyvec, I am not sure. It may not stay on some forms of plastics, like tyvec. It WILL stick to nylon. But, not treated silnylon. It will wash off quickly. Three or four times getting wet.
My thoughts only . . .
                                jdm

From: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> [mailto:[email protected]]<mailto:[mailto:[email protected]]> On Behalf Of Coosa
Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2013 8:28 AM
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [BackpackingLight] Re: bug free cowboy camping




I plan to use my Tyvek ground cloth to lay my clothing on when I spray with Permethrin.

Went for a 4 hour hike in a local Battlefield Park yesterday "pre-Permethrin" & found a tick on my leg afterwards.

TODAY I am spraying everything & I have a spray can I'm planning to put in a Mail Drop to a town where I plan a Zero. Hope it doesn't rain that day!

Coosa



On Apr 10, 2013, at 6:35 AM, Mike Tamada <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:

>One way to avoid the creepy crawlers while cowboy camping would be too
>Use a Tyvek ground sheet that sticks out one foot beyond your sleeping pad and soak it in permathrin.
>That will keep centipedes and ants at bay and will even keep most mosquitoes from coming near.

Fascinating idea, I recently got a bottle of permethrin and was going to use it to treat a shirt and pants; I hadn't ever thought of treating the groundsheet.  Is there a way to tell if the treatment has worn off, or do you automatically re-treat say once a year?

--MKT