RE: Re: bug free cowboy camping

Like I say, make up your own minds, but make sure it is an educated decision.  I use DEET and Permethrin, too…too old to care, I guess.
                My thoughts only . . .
                                jdm

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Jerry Goller
Sent: Monday, April 15, 2013 9:09 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: [BackpackingLight] Re: bug free cowboy camping




Now read some reports on West Nile, Lyme’s, Avian, Rocky Mountain Spotted and a few of the other tick and mosquito borne diseases. Those aren’t possible or maybe. Those are real and here in the west.

I’m feelin’ lucky. I’ll risk the Permethrin and deet…

Jerry
From: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Jim Marco
Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 2:16 PM
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Subject: RE: [BackpackingLight] Re: bug free cowboy camping


Jerry,
                More recent studies from TEDX adds the following:
One of our primary concerns is recent research demonstrating that permethrin exhibits the characteristics of an endocrine disruptor. Endocrine disruptors are chemicals that interfere with the communication system of glands, hormones, and cellular receptors that control the body’s internal functions. A relatively unique feature of endocrine disruptors is that they exert their effects at extremely low doses, even when higher doses exhibit no adverse effects. Disorders that have increased in prevalence in recent years such as unusual male gonadal development, infertility, ADHD, autism, intellectual impairment, diabetes, thyroid disorders, and childhood and/or adult cancers are now being linked to prenatal exposure to endocrine disruptors.
In the permethrin studies of health effects on the female reproductive system, excessive cell growth was a common finding. In contrast, cell death and reduced tissue weight of male reproductive organs were among the findings on the male reproductive system. One study suggested that the products permethrin breaks down into may be 100 times more potent with regards to endocrine disruption than permethrin itself. Due to the potential endocrine disrupting effects of permethrin, pregnant women should take extra steps to avoid exposure.
Several studies have been conducted on the effects of combinations of chemicals used among U.S. military personnel during the Persian Gulf War, including permethrin (impregnated in battle dress uniforms) and DEET (used as an insect repellent). The toxicity of permethrin was shown to be greatly enhanced when used in combination with DEET. As shown in the graph, the adverse effects of chemical combinations were documented in several different systems. Given this, we recommend that serious consideration be given to the risks and benefits of using DEET as an insect repellent in areas where permethrin is used.
Very few studies have been performed in recent years on the cancer-causing potential of permethrin. A 1994 review by the U.S. Army concluded that permethrin is a “possible human carcinogen” based on early studies in rodents. In 2006 the EPA also classified permethrin as “likely to be carcinogenic in humans,” based on mouse studies showing evidence of lung and liver tumors related to permethrin.
Given the scientific evidence reported here, we urge people to weigh the risks and benefits of permethrin exposure carefully and to employ the precautionary measures recommended by the Department of Health and Human Services, as the real effects of permethrin on human health may not be recognized for many years.
If you have questions after reading this report, you may contact TEDX at 970-527-4082. Information on endocrine disruptors may be found on our web site. The National Pesticide Information Center at Oregon State University has a phone number for pesticide related questions from the general public: 1-800-858-7378.


From: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Jim Marco
Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 4:11 PM
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Subject: RE: [BackpackingLight] Re: bug free cowboy camping




Jerry,
                Here are two more links outlining some more effects of Permethrin from creditable sources, ie government sources other than military. Military reports tend to be short sighted in scope.
http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/toxguides/toxguide-155.pdf
http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/toxprofiles/tp155.pdf
I believe these were revised and republished on 2001 and are revisions of previous documentation.
This is the summary:
Pyrethrins and Pyrethroids
CAS ID #: 121-21-1, 52645-53-1, 68085-85-8

Affected Organ Systems: Dermal (Skin), Gastrointestinal (Digestive), Neurological (Nervous System)

Cancer Effects: None

Chemical Classification: Pesticides (chemicals used for killing pests, such as rodents, insects, or plants)

Summary: Pyrethrins are naturally-occurring coµmpounds with insecticidal properties that are found in pyrethruµm extract froµm certain chrysantheµmuµm flowers. The pyrethrins are often used in household insecticides and products to control insects on pets or livestock. Pyrethroids are µmanufactured cheµmicals that are very siµmilar in structure to the pyrethrins, but are often µmore toxic to insects as well as to µmaµmµmals, and last longer in the environµment than the pyrethrins. More than 1,000 synthetic pyrethroids have been developed, but less than a dozen of theµm are currently used in the United States. Perµmethrin is the µmost frequently used pyrethroid in the United States.

I, personally, use it on camping clothing. I believe it is a low risk beneficial bug killer. Really good against ticks. But, that’s me. I see there were some format disruption in the cut and paste routine. I’ll leave those…

All,
Anyway, bug free cowboy camping often means using chemicals of some sort during bug season. Permethrin is one that is fairly safe.  Enough debates on side issues, so, I will assume they are available.
                I use a tarp. In a typical lean-to set up, bugs are partially blocked by that. Sometimes a wind can help, but don’t count in it. Smoke from a cigar, pipe or cigarette will help. DEET will help repel them. As will citronella, and a host of other things for shorter periods of time and often are species specific. Mosquito coils will help…break off what you need or burn the whole thing. Citronella candles help. Being on the move helps, though, some bugs, like Deerflys, will follow movement. Wear long sleeved clothing and use  hair ties/rubber bands to prevent the beasties from crawling up your sleeves and cuffs. Make sure the clothing you DO wear is bug proof. Mosquitoes can bite through a lot of clothing. Slathering DEET over exposed areas just before bed will usually work, often till through the next day, with black flies. Wake up early, pack up and start your hike when it is cool, bugs are less active in cool conditions. Stop and have breakfast when you see the first of the bugs. Yes, you will have a few, but, you will be ready for hiking when the bugs are at their most active. Skip lunch, eat on the move. Blackflys can find you as a heat source, avoiding sitting or standing still will not give them a chance to swarm.  Rarely, mosquitoes are food “crazed” and even DEET will not repel them, totally. A head net can be used if all else fails. Sometimes a headnet is the only way to keep from going crazy yourself in a heavy swarm of blackflies. But I have never been able to do more than doze off with one.  At night a net is sometimes necessary, too. But, at least in the north country, nights are often cool enough to put most bugs down.
                My thoughts only . . .
                                jdm


From: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Jerry Goller
Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2013 7:22 PM
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Subject: RE: [BackpackingLight] Re: bug free cowboy camping



Gee, that is almost exactly the opposite of what read. As far as DDT is concerned, dioxin is bad for you too. But we aren’t talking about that, either.

Jerry





From: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Jim Marco

Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2013 8:34 AM
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Subject: RE: [BackpackingLight] Re: bug free cowboy camping


Jerry,
                Well, It DOES have an effect on mammals. Cats were mentioned in several things I was reading. It is BAD for cats. And especial children. Birds, while not a mammal, are affected. Aquatic fish, and other aquatic invertebrates are strongly affected. Incorrectly treated clothing, or, clothing that was just sprayed and never rinsed into a bucket to be UV treated (sunlight is the easiest,) can release lethal (to fish and invertibrates) amounts into the water as you wade through it.  I lived through some of the worst DDT poisoning possible here in NY. They killed the blackflys, yes, by dropping solid blocks of the stuff in the swamps. They killed off loons, eagles, osprey, kingfishers, and many other birds, too, when they couldn’t nest without crushing their own eggs, by killing off the invertebrates that fed on the blackfly larva... their food supply for the year(a simplification,) by killing the minnows that ate…well, you get my point. I prefer to think we have learned a hard lesson 60 years after they, my government, did that to me and my environment. Use Permethrin with caution. It is hard to understand how everything works and is related to other things. But, yes, Permethrin does mitigate the risk of many diseases and other pathogens. It is difficult to define where one risk outweighs another type of risk.

http://www.epa.gov/oppsrrd1/REDs/factsheets/permethrin_fs.htm is one such document outlining increased danger of cancer or LOC as they term it. Loose Permethrin, ie non-bonded Permethrin can increase the risk of neurological disorders and other problems.  Rashes and other problems are reported in medical journals on-line. Again, this is usually from non-bonded Permethrin; or direct contact with the chemical itself. Not with correctly treated clothing.

                So, it is not accurate to say it has no effect on mammals. This is an oversimplification. DDT has no effect on people. This does NOT mean it is safe to use.
                Now, this is not to say I am against using it. I treat my cloths where applicable. I wear nylon pants and merino wool shirts for hiking/camping, These get treated, dried and rinsed in a bucket. The excess gets painted on the foundation to keep ants and termites down. Or, gets dumped on the driveway where the sun can UV it. It does NOT go in the washer without completing these steps. I do not just dump excess on the lawn (eventually drainig into the pond.) Permethrin does NOT get broken down by sewage treatment, so it does not go down the drain. I do not apply it to fleeces. These are usually recycled PET and resist take up. Polyesters are rather iffy.

                The point is, you have to know what you are doing to safely and successfully use Permethrin. Part of safe usage is understanding the side effects and potential problems of what you are dealing with. I never directly recommend it, rather, I recommend a person educate themselves on its usage.

                My thoughts only . . .
                                jdm

From: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Jerry Goller
Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2013 9:03 AM
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Subject: RE: [BackpackingLight] Re: bug free cowboy camping




I assume the clothes have been allowed to dry completely before wearing them. Since permethrin has no effect on mammals, what happens if the “excess” isn’t washed off?

Jerry

From: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Jim Marco
Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2013 6:30 AM
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Subject: RE: [BackpackingLight] Re: bug free cowboy camping


Hi Coosa,
Be careful. You should wash any excess permethrin off any cloths that are in contact with your skin. It does absorb, slowly, like anything else, through the skin. Ground cloths are iffy. If you use tyvec, I am not sure. It may not stay on some forms of plastics, like tyvec. It WILL stick to nylon. But, not treated silnylon. It will wash off quickly. Three or four times getting wet.
My thoughts only . . .
                                jdm

From: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> [mailto:[email protected]]<mailto:[mailto:[email protected]]> On Behalf Of Coosa
Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2013 8:28 AM
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [BackpackingLight] Re: bug free cowboy camping



I plan to use my Tyvek ground cloth to lay my clothing on when I spray with Permethrin.

Went for a 4 hour hike in a local Battlefield Park yesterday "pre-Permethrin" & found a tick on my leg afterwards.

TODAY I am spraying everything & I have a spray can I'm planning to put in a Mail Drop to a town where I plan a Zero. Hope it doesn't rain that day!

Coosa


On Apr 10, 2013, at 6:35 AM, Mike Tamada <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:

>One way to avoid the creepy crawlers while cowboy camping would be too
>Use a Tyvek ground sheet that sticks out one foot beyond your sleeping pad and soak it in permathrin.
>That will keep centipedes and ants at bay and will even keep most mosquitoes from coming near.
Fascinating idea, I recently got a bottle of permethrin and was going to use it to treat a shirt and pants; I hadn't ever thought of treating the groundsheet.  Is there a way to tell if the treatment has worn off, or do you automatically re-treat say once a year?
--MKT