Re: Re: [Israel.pm] Is University Really Necessary?

On 3/25/07, ik_5 <[email protected]> wrote:
> Hello Araik,

It's Arik, Ido.

> As far as I know from your "CV" (I didn't really saw it), you where
> head of computer science at the Technion, or something close.
> Now I really respect what you are saying, but because Nir used some
> quoting, I have the need to use it as well:

I wasn't even close. I was an undergraduate student, I did work in the
Technion Computer Center as a student, which is not the same as the
Computer Science faculty. I did not have any role in this faculty
other than that of a student.

> Personally (I always write about myself or on people I know from first
> hand), I'm not very objective in my perspective, and I think that non
> of the answers on this subject can arrive from objective point of view.

That's fine, objectivism is highly overrated. We cannot be objective
merely because we live in a subjective world, the one we created for
ourselves. I can go on and on about that, though.

> Personally, I believe that the open source world gave us something
> great: The ability to show the rest of the world our code, and the
> ability to learn from others without the need to be part of an "elite"
> group.

Ou Contraire, mon ami. Open source coders ARE an elite group. People
who can code. The credentials you need to join the group: Be able to
code and have free time. You know how many people have that
combination? A minute percentage of the population. People who are
well fed, well clothed, well educated (not necessarily formal
education here) and don't have to worry about what they will do
tomorrow for the essentials of life.

> Personally I do not believe that things such as exams can point on
> someone knowledge in a subject other then taking exams.

That's not entirely accurate, it depends on the exam, and the
examiner. And yes there are techniques for taking exams. I believe
that you're also missing an important subtext, an important
meta-program that stems from going to school (again, not just higher
education): The ability to get an assigned task, do it, get feedback,
learn from the feedback and do better next time.

This meta-program is, IMHO, an extremely important part in the ability
to cope with life as it is today and be successful. It's a basis to
basically everything you do. If you have a job - you're handed a task,
you perform it, and get feedback. If you're self-employed - you decide
on a task, perform it, and the success of your business is your
feedback. If you're an inventor, you create something, you realize it,
and acceptance in the market is your feedback. If you're an artist...
I can go on and on about this, you get the point.

> I do not believe that learning at a university can point something on
> a person.

Are we talking about what other people think? Because I'm talking
about what's important to you as a person, for your personal
development. When I went to the Technion I went there because I wanted
to learn, definitely not because I wanted a diploma. In fact, I was an
Atudai (עתודאי) and when asked for the faculty, my first choice was
computer science. I was asked to specify a second choice which I have
left blank to the dismay of the officer who filled this form. I knew
what I wanted to learn, I couldn't care less about the diploma. (BTW
in retrospect Atuda for me was a bad thing and I don't recommend it
without careful consideration).

Regardless of that, when I interview someone I do take into account
their university degree, because I think it DOES say something about
the person. It says "the person in front of you can take up a
long-term task that lasts 3-4 years, a task which is made up from many
different challenges, some are boring and some are interesting. All in
all, that person took the challenge and completed it to a certain
degree of success". Although not having a degree does not imply that
the person is incapable of such feats, having a degree indicates that
the person has done it at least once.

> I know (from first hand) a person that have taken curses in order to
> have an academic degree in one subject, after two years, he moved to
> computer science, with points on many subjects that gave him "ptor"
> for a lot of harder classes, and now he learns CS in order to be a
> software engineer.

Yep, I think most of the first semesters - math, physics, etc. - it's
quite a lot. It doesn't let you waive the requirement for any core CS
courses though.

> I also know from first hand, few people that dropped out of
> university, and returned to finish their degree.
> And last but not least I know people that have so many diplomas, but
> they don't understand anything.

Of course they do. They understand how to get diplomas. I'm not being
cynical, but if that is all you gained from your academic studies, I
don't think going there was such a good idea.

> So I can't trust that someone can be good or excellent just because he
> or she learned at the university.

Obvious.

> I also believe that no one is perfect (I know that I'm far from being
> perfect).

Obvious.

> But why do you believe that only someone that learned from university
> can have good tools and paradigms, while others can not ?

I'm going to read what I wrote to see how you got that impression.
Nope, I didn't say that. All I said is that it can help.

> Why did the studding at university became like religion, that only the
> ones that part of that "cult" can have access to things, while people
> that do wish to know, but can't handle this religion, are not deserve it ?

I'm afraid I'll have to ask you to unpack this question. You're
mentioning a lot of terms I am not sure I get the way you get.
'deserve' is a very loaded word. It means that you have the right to
something because of who you are or the work you did. So which one is
it? What are the "things" that one would deserve being a part of the
cult?

> "Until lions have their historians, tales of the hunt shall always
> glorify the hunter."
>     African Proverb

I like that one. Can you please explain its relevance to the topic? I
hope you don't mean what I think you mean.

-- Arik