Re: Internet-history Digest, Vol 77, Issue 55

Hilarious: I came back to our CEO and reported, "It was so nice to see
another large
corporation that is *more* screwed up than we are!"

I met with Bell Labs and Bell Core from time to time - never made much
progress with them on TCP/IP - same with IBM (Ellen Hancock was viscerally
opposed to anything but SNA).

v



On Tue, May 5, 2026 at 12:22 PM John Shoch via Internet-history <
[email protected]> wrote:

> Regarding packet switching work at AT&T vs AT&T Bell Labs, Sandy Fraser,
> Spider net, et. al -- some background, and an anecdote:
>
> Background
>
> It's probably true that the parts of AT&T focused on telephony and
> long-distance data had little appreciation for the potential of packet
> switching and the internet.
> But Bell Labs had a long history of work on alternative local data
> communications at the edge of the network, especially via local rings and
> loops for data communication:
> "Newhall Loop" by Newhall, Farmer, and others;  token passing ring.  Papers
> starting in 1969.
> "Pierce loop" by Pierce, empty slot technique.  Papers starting 1971.
> "Spider Network" ring with control via a central switch.  Papers starting
> 1974.
>
> Tony actually wrote a nice note with some of the background:
>    https://dl.acm.org/doi/epdf/10.1145/1015676.1015677
> Many more references are listed here:
>
>
> https://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/xerox/parc/techReports/SSL-79-5_An_Annotated_Bibliography_on_Local_Computer_Networks_Oct79.pdf
>
> In 1979 I wrote an assessment of the Spider network:
> "One of the major examples of a loop is the Spider network built at Bell
> Laboratories [Hayes,
> 1973, 1974; Fraser, 1974a, 1974b, 1974c, 1974d, 1975]. The system used a
> unidirectional ring
> utilizing T1 technology (1.544 Mbps), controlled from a minicomputer
> serving as a "central
> switch." Frames contain a total o f 386 bits, including 336 usable bits
> plus an additional 50 bits
> required for T1 framing and clock recovery. Connections to the loop at a
> host are made
> through a Terminal Interface Unit (TIU) equipped with a microprocessor
> known as the "Fly." "
>
> I was pretty critical of the design, esp. compared to the Ethernet:
>  separate ring control box required at each station, small block sizes,
> central control via a complex ring controller, virtual circuits needed to
> be established through the controller to another host, reliability issues,
> etc. etc.    And it was not conceived as part of a broader internet
> environment.
>
> But I also had to acknowledge:
> "Spider has been quite distinguished, however, in providing service to a
> real set of users. By
> 1975 it had been used to interconnect numerous machines in the Bell Labs
> environment,
> including single user minicomputers, laboratory instrumentation machines,
> and time-sharing
> facilities. Services available through the network have included access to
> a shared network file
> system and a printing server."
>
> As Len K. said, "Kudos to Sandy."
>
> An anecdote
>
> Several years later I was working at Xerox corporate HQ.  Our CEO had
> crossed paths with the AT&T CEO and they came up with the suggestion, "Why
> don't we have some people meet and see if we can work on something
> together."  So I was dispatched to Bell Labs in NJ for a series of
> presentations on various projects underway within the lab.  There was
> continuing work on alternatives for local data communication -- but
> different groups came through with different projects, and they were often
> critical of the other projects within the Labs!
> I came back to our CEO and reported, "It was so nice to see another large
> corporation that is *more* screwed up than we are!"
>
> John Shoch
>
>
> > Message: 1
> > Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2026 09:16:57 -0500
> > From: Andrew Odlyzko <[email protected]>
> > To: Internet-history <[email protected]>
> > Subject: [ih] a few comments about Tier 1 networks, Frame Relay, Sandy
> >         Fraser, etc.
> > Message-ID:
> >         <CAJOs04J1=_
> > [email protected]>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
> >
> > Jumping into this interesting discussion with a few minor comments:
> >
> > Vint asked about Sandy Fraser's data networks.  My recollection
> > is that Spidernet (or possibly just Spider) was created by Sandy,
> > but it was a local area network, and that it preceded Datakit, which
> > was for long distance links.  I don't know whether Spidernet was
> > ever commercialized, but it was used inside Bell Labs Research.
> > (I joined Bell Labs in 1975, and was located physically and
> > organizationally close to Sandy's group, but was not familiar with
> > their work, just heard some comments here and there in those early days.)
> >
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