Re: Digest Number 3641

Marion,

As always your answers are very interesting. But here your answers look conflicted. 

There is a major difference between getting the best from any current moment, and having a fair system. As I read your answers I find you switching between, and while you offer some justifications it is not really answering me. I'm going to try to make this clear below.
 
From: "Marion Gropen" 
> 
> Joseph Harris wrote:

Let me start with this question and your answer:
>>
>> Underlying this is the question that Americans usually dodge. Why is  
>> the work of the pen any less property than anything else that a  
>> person makes.
> 
> I don't think it is. But I know that many people see ideas as  
> something that should be shared, and extend this to artistic and  
> literary works.

Copyright does not cover ideas. There is no prevention to the sharing of ideas. I have yet to see how this is put forward seriously. It is the expression of the idea that is copyright. When I see this argument it normally resolves into the complainer being unable to separate the ideas from the substance of the writing; that is normally the detail world and characters of a novel, usually niche.

In fact, in fiction writing, I doubt if there are any new ideas to find! If we look at Tolkien's wonderful works I would point out that these came out of the man's great learning and the advances he made in his field as a working professor. There have in fact been many who have taken hold of many of these hard-won ideas and extended the fantasy world with them.

Copyright and term were no problem at all. If my argument holds, then the issue of property establishes?

But you say this:

> --Most books, whether trade or not, are dead in the water after 2 or 3  
> years, so 10 is plenty to cover that.

As though it supported shorter term. You know better than I do that there can be 1001 reasons for the short life of many. Also that a failed book is quite capable of revival decades later

and
> --Offering an option to renew allows those who want to extend their  
> control to do so, and keeps the contact database updated.

Which is merely a sneaky opt-in - opt-out argument.  You concede it is (probably) property; but then you want a licence of ownership renewal? And how does anyone actually and realistically check? 

This doesn't answer it:

> --Eternal copyright really does represent an expensive and extensive  
> requirement for database management, if those who wish to use old  
> material are to be able to ask permission. 

That lovely database dream! It ain't practical; and who cares in any way what the db problem is. It is a tail wags dog arguemnt.

And this almost made me SHOUT!

 should be treated as abandoned property.
> --Most societies have some way of treating abandoned property,

Continuance of title is no problem at all. Dealing with truly unatributable material requires no change in anything, except application of exisiting property laws!

?This is puzzling:
 
>> Marion suggests a ten year copyright term. But this immediately  
>> introduces the need for sets of definitions that are vital to  
>> writers and publishers. When does the ten years start?
> 
> At publication, or if never published, at the earliest date that can  
> be proven for its existence in the current form.

The new term of 'current form' is unexplained and another potential lawyers' delight. But in any case, suddenly we are talking of copyright as a publication matter. Why? What does that mean in practice?

Here I misled withte term I used. I should have put 'reprint':
 
>> What happens if a new edition is being discussed after nine years?  
>> Is that edition still in copyright until sold out;
> 
> New edition = new material = new copyright. Old edition runs out  
> unless renewed. (And  you're dumb if you don't renew!)

And what if your budget means you can renew OR reprint/update? And why should my work be updateable by someone else?

Here, though, your argument really collapses. Apart from my objections about permission to use your own work, isn't infinite renewal worse that life plus 70?:
> 
>> and does 'in print' entitle reprints if demand is high? How does an  
>> author properly benefit for a long-popular book like Lord of the  
>> Rings, rather than benefitting all the chancers who give nothing to  
>> publishing but will happily line their own pockets?
> 
> I said nothing about in print. But, frankly, if the rights are still  
> valuable, perhaps infinite renewals should be allowed. Not sure that  
> anyone has a right to take valuable property away from those who  
> create and generate that value.

....
>>
>> But there is a massive difference between a Harlequin or Mills and  
>> Boon romance, and a Bonfire of the Vanities. Marion knows full well  
>> that only the writer and the publisher can make the calculations to  
>> determine the price and the formats of publishing and their timings.  
>> Most on this list find the impositions of Kindle and others very  
>> restrictive and sometimes quite difficult in making their business  
>> work.
> 
> There's a huge difference between the content, but the price points  
> vary relatively little, for fiction in the States. Mass market  
> paperbacks sell for between $6.99 and $8.99, more or less. Trade paper  
> usually sells for between $14.95 and $16.95, with outliers down as low  
> as $12.95 (mass sellers) and as high as $19.95 (long-tail specials).  
> Hardbacks are in the high 20s, unless they're mass market authors, in  
> which case they MAY sell in the low 20s.
> 
> Now, popular formula fiction often is published in mass market  
> paperback only, and the very limited interest literary productions are  
> often not published as mass market pb at all, so that could be  
> considered a de facto price differentiation. But still, I suspect that  
> ebook fiction will be priced within a narrow range for quite some  
> time, but that the pricing will decline as a function of time-after- 
> pub-date.

...
> Marion Gropen
> Gropen Associates, Inc.
> By-The-Question Consulting,  Tools for Publishers, & Classes
> www.GropenAssoc.com
> Her blog: www.GropenAssoc.com/blog
> 
> 

And with this last I think the conflicts in your postion become stark. First you are referencing the current domination of the mega-publishers, who treat books in the same sausage factory was as the new big gorillas. They are already devaluing quality, and have done for over a decade. Their practice is no argument, except to question allowing such bodies to be involved in copyright.

And, again, you detail pricing as affected by their practices. Times past have seen very different pricing scenarios; revealing that there are many other possible ways. And I would cap this area of the discussion by asking why only US experience is 'publishing' in a modern interconnected world?

If the argument is *for* culture*, then the need is for those who perfect their vision to be able to charge prices that will enable to their next version of perfection. Not to force them to write like sausage machines, abd for publishing executives to bemoan the drop in quality and poor sales, even at a standard price.

If *culture* is merely a cover for stealing [colloquial, don't tell me it isn't criminal law] copyright - mentioning no big gorilla - then join in the devaluation of culture. 

But you did already show a range of pricing anyway, even in modern practice. So the issue is simple. 

Who decides pricing, who decides ownership, who actually owns the property?

Joseph

Joseph Harris - Debt Control Man
http://www.controlyourdebtcrisis.co.uk
Author: Control Your Debt Crisis on Your Own Terms
http://twitter.com/debtcontrolman 
SAQ - SAve the cheQue


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