Re: Re: What kind of pirate am I?

On Oct 14, 2010, at 8:05 PM, joseph harris wrote:

> From: "Mary E Tyler"
>> On Oct 13, 2010, at 9:52 AM, Kirk McElhearn wrote:
>>> On Oct 13, 2010, at 2:21 PM, Barry wrote:
>>>
>>>> If I buy a book in one electronic format and buy a new device and
>>>> figure out how to convert the book I paid for to another format you
>>>> call it stealing. I don't call it stealing.  In this case the law
>>>> would agree with me.  While the law might have things to say about
>>>> what I did the law would not call it stealing.
>>>
>>> The law would call it a copyright violation. That's a different case
>>> than obtaining a work in the first place. You're changing the  
>>> subject.
>>
>> Actually, I believe they'd call it fair use.
>
> Mary,
>
> I ususally agree with you, but here I think you are factually wrong.  
> Fair Use [in the US - Fair Dealing in the UK] is surrounded with  
> rules and litigacious people. Irrespective of country and detail it  
> involves the use of small parts of copyright material. Larger use is  
> only if a serious critical study of a text is undertaken.
>
> Format shifting is
>> allowed just as time shifting is allowed.
>
> Again I disagree, and would like to see the the facts about where  
> the permission for it comes from. I should have asked Brenna the  
> same thing.
>

This is a really old decision here in the US. It may not be so in the  
UK, but I believe that format shifting comes from the old betamax  
decision. It's been the law of the land for most of my lifetime. IIRC,  
format shifting was affirmed within the last decade or so.

> Personal uses have far more
>> leeway than commercial, especially when they are truly personal. Yes,
>> I CAN rip my tapes/CDs to MP3s and OCR my books to ebook.
>
> I am not discussing non-book publishing, but please again what is  
> the actual nature of the permission to OCR?

I don't believe that it has been litigated, but I would think that  
it's format shifting: paper to ebook. A lot of things never get  
litigated b/c people think they cannot win.

>> I have to agree with Barry....it is my long experience that authors  
>> and
>> publishers get VERY emotional over copyright issues
>
> Now hold on. If I have something stolen I am going to get emotional;  
> and so would you. Give me  a real proposal for an alternative, and I  
> can talk about it. Just tell me you are going to take my things  
> because you want them and I am going to get really, really annoyed.  
> If people want a logical argument start it. Don't accuse others of a  
> reaction without being clear about the specifics.
>
> By the way in the piracy discussions I use stolen and stealing and  
> theft because I see this as a moral matter, and I mean the basic  
> morals. Details of law are another matter.

See, I don't necessarily see this as a basic moral matter. I see it as  
a matter of law. And that may have to do with the differences in the  
law. In Europe they have moral rights. Here in the US, we don't.

My charge of emotionalism is based on non-net experience discussing  
this matter with authors/publishers. They get positively hysterical  
about the matter, especially as I continue to calmly disagree with  
them as a matter of written and case law.

> and the published
>> articles do nothing but feed into that, trying to make law that which
>> is not law.
>
> That is too broad and sweeping to be an acceptable point. What  
> articles? What law are they making? And who is writing those  
> articles? Are they indies? Big publishers? Or the usual 'Make a  
> million while you lie in bed' marketing?

Every article I have every read about "piracy" and "theft." Most  
industry articles I have read seem to espouse this line of  
"reasoning," which uses loaded words to produce an emotional reaction  
not based in the law.

> And I get the "English is to German as ebooks are to DRM"
>> analogy
>
> The analogy doesn't work for me. Only a small percentage of ebooks  
> are  DRM, and most of the latter are proprietary formats for big  
> corporation devices. I am one of the biggest critics of  
> corporations, but I won't break the law to go against them - not on  
> DRM anyway. English contains many German words, but none of its  
> grammar - I don't buy its definition as Germanic, however 'official'  
> it is.

That's not the point, because you don't get it. The point is, if MOST  
of the books MOST people use (most of the words most people use) are  
DRM (Germanic) then what good does it do if the vast majority of the  
books people DON'T use are non-DRM (Latinate). It still means that  
people's perception of ebooks (English) is DRM (Germanic).

> When you say it is not analogous to physical property, I think you  
> are wrong. Physical property is as dependent on the laws of the  
> society for the term and tules as is IP. Both are agreements between  
> the amorphous bodies of owners and of society through its elected  
> representatives. Both are decisions of the body politic. Bot h  
> confer rights of control on that property.

Ah, but prior to the law, there was no intellectual property, moral or  
not. Prior to the law, intellectual property was thought to belong to  
everyone and it was generally the publisher who profited, not the  
author.

So I am going to have to disagree here. And you will undoubtedly  
disagree with me. And I'm tired of talking about it. Barry delisted  
and we've been through this many, many times before. I still haven't  
changed your mind that infringement is "theft" and you still haven't  
changed my mind that it's not. Do we REALLY need to bore everyone with  
this AGAIN?

dej
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