Re: International E-book Sales Restrictions Explained

On 16/06/2012 19:49, Chris wrote:
> On Sat, 16 Jun 2012, joseph harris wrote:
>
>    
>> You seem to have forgotten then that this was about using a digital file
>> to create an image on canvass, Hayden's proposition.
>>      
> Perhaps you have recalled some other discussion, column, or posting.
>
> Your comment above startled me -- I had read PNH's original item, and I didn't
> recall anything like this. So I went back and re-read it, looking for this.
> Then I tried again, using the most liberal interpretation of what PHN wrote.
>
> What you are suggesting he said is not there.
>    

You are quite right, so my apologies.  What I had in mind was Chris 
Smith's comment

  "The gallery moved the artists work from paper to canvas,
>  but because there was no increase in the number of reproductions, the
>  Supreme Court found that there was no copyright infringement."

I thought I had gone back to check your article, but I obviously didnt'. That it had cropped up in the same thread is not a good enough excuse for me to offer.

> The only mess he refers to is that this system -- the ebook selling system, not
> copyright -- annoys customers. I tried pointing out, possibly not explicitly
> enough, that it was well within the scope of existing copyright for authors and
> publishers to annoy their customers less, and to have those customers feel they
> are not being treated unfairly. I stand by that suggestion - businesses,
> including publishers and authors, would do well to simultaneously make money,
> be fair, and not annoy their customers.
>    

This I did respond to  - I hope I too did this  clearly - that what may 
seem 'possible' from an observer's viewpoint may not suit the publishing 
situation for any number of reasons. No seller want to annoy customers, 
and believe me authors and publishers are very aware of monetary 
implications. But again it may depend who you are thinking of when you 
write. I cannot talk for the big six, or the other larger publishers. 
what i can say is that this is a very complex and very varied business, 
and even those inside cannot encompass the whole industry.

> Moreover, the extent of PHN suggesting doing something different than things
> are done today extends only as far as "Does the book industry need to be
> rethinking how it handles this stuff? Yep. Is it? I think it¢s starting to."
> This is nowhere near the storming of the copyright gates that would seem to be
> inferred from your descriptions.
>    

Here you are unaware of the differences between different areas and 
different types and sizes of publishers and author decisions and 
actions.  There has been massive innovation by people in the industry - 
some of them newcomers, using the great technological innovations as 
well as in the more conventional areas. The big six are often criticised 
for being slow, and like massive oil tankers big companies take a while 
to change direction. But the industry as a whole is among the most 
innovative, and has been for centuries. I'd say it is one of the great 
centres for entrepreneurs.  I think, as I have said in other words, yoiu 
are making a claim to know more than people in the industry, and I don't 
believe that claim is justified.

>    
>> Stores are middlemen, and are as bound by the limitations of an edition as
>> anyone else under the copyright laws. Booksellers are not exempt from laws
>> properly passed by the legislature of the country in which they exist.
>>      
> Stores own their inventory. Really, they do. Even books.
>    

Chris, you are wrong. Simply wrong. The best example of this came with 
the collapse of Borders, where publishers were left trying to recover 
their property from the liquidators. Bookshops return books if they do 
not sell them, or if they get damaged. You should read up on publisher 
complaints about this. Publishers would love it if it were like other 
businesses where shopkeepers gamble on their judgement about sales.

I did suggest you were in some respects uninformed, and you show it 
here. "Stores" may generally "own their inventory", but bookshops are a 
specific business. Specific and different in this respect.

> On the foreign sale - one key point to note, however, is that Amazon is likely
> not considered to be importing books into other countries. The *buyers* are
> importing them. The sale has effectively happened in the US. If Amazon held the
> responsibility for those works arriving in the UK, then they would also hold
> the responsibility for paying duties and tariffs - not to mention sales taxes -
> in the UK. Amazon is very careful about where it has nexus, not just by
> country, but by state, which would trigger it having to deal with these issues.
>    

You both argue against yourself, and also do not appreciate the simple 
point; Amazon must obey the laws, among which is contract law. Issues of 
tax are quite irrelevant to copyright; but contract law is very relevant 
to copyright. With both physical and digital books Amazon is very aware 
where it sends packets, by post or wire. The US Amazon sends regular 
parcels of books to the UK Amazon, but does not send books that are 
barred for copyright reasons. Many books are generated in the UK, 
specially PoD via LSI. And possibly a majority of exports to other 
countries are sent by Amazon UK. All regional limitations are recognised.

As to your suggestion that sales happen in the US, I think you will find 
it very complex; and with Amazon's web of national sites most sales are 
made i n the buyer's own country, and the processing is handled by the 
Amazon office in that country, or in a place specified by that local 
staff. Amazon UK payments, for example, are processed in Belgium, while 
UK buyers from Amazon US have their payments processed in the UK.

And where items are posted from the US to other countries I can assure 
you they have to comply with import requirements; I don't know what 
makes you think otherwise. The consumer/customer does not import.

> It's not too much different than a UK citizen taking a 2 hour vacation in
> the US, buying a book with their credit card, and bringing it home with them.
> For such a short visit, there may be no duty exemption, and the UK resident has
> the responsibility to declare the goods as something they are importing and pay
> duties owing.
>
>    
As I explain above, it is very different. The items are subject to 
customs inspection while i n the postal system. Buyers are involved only 
if any required payments have not been made. VAT does not apply to 
physical books i n the UK, and the digital payments are dealt with by 
customs and Excise separately from the transfers.

> The other key point is the degree to which bookstores are middlemen. Bookstores
> are the one buying from the publisher, and if the stores are actually buying
> the book, that would exhaust the distribution rights. (Key point - not the
> copying right, just the distribution right.) My rough understanding is that
> bookstores do buy the books, and they are invoiced for them. The fact that they
> can return them for credit, and in fact may never actually pay for many of the
> books on their shelves does not change the point that this is a sale of the
> book.
>    

Chris, I know it is hard for you to understand, but bookstores do not 
own the books on their shelves. I haven't time to explain more than I 
have done, but just think about how many books are published each year, 
and what would happen to the accounts of a bookstore that couldn't 
return unsold books to stock the next releases. Possession may be nine 
points of the law, but it is not the same as or proof of ownership. And 
an invoice is a request for payment, not a proof of ownership either.

> The exception would be if the books are tranferred under an agency agreement,
> where the bookstore is contractually an agent of the publisher. Then there is
> no actual sale, more like a transfer of inventory. But agency is not common in
> bookstores for printed books.
>
>    
>> 'First sale', by whatever name you refer to it, relates to the rights of the
>> consumer. Bookshops, physical or virtual, are not consumers but middlemen.
>>      
> "First sale" is from the copyright holder - in most cases, the publisher. There
> is no mention of consumers or middlemen in that legislation, only copyright
> holders and "the public" - everyone else, including bookstores.
>
> Perhaps this is different in the UK?
>    

For goodness sake! The retailer is part of the distribution chain.

Joseph Harris


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