Re: MDDM Washington
public domain <[email protected]> Mon, 1 Jul 2002 04:10:58 -0700 (PDT)
| Newsgroups | gmane.culture.literature.thomas-pynchon |
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--0-186927179-1025521858=:19812 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by waste.org id g61HaqZY011060 =20 Otto asked,=20 What should that be?=20 Not that TRP is Doug or Jbore, but an American author of American fiction= .=20 Certainly not that I am Monica or that I ever wrote an off-list post to e= ither Kai or Jbore. Both lie. Certainly not a Post worth our time from We= aver or the other jackasses here who only call people names. As Jbore, si= tting on a cornflake, says, it=92s sad and pathetic. Send me the bill Doc= tor Jbore, you can=92t keep me from jumping out your window.=20 While Marx and Hegel may be read in TRP, they are ridiculed. Like Nietzsc= he and Emerson. Dialecticians, like Norman O. Brown, are important to Pyn= chon, but only as crank theories.=20 =20 It=92s in the tension dear King.=20 --Lear=92s Fool=20 =20 =20 =20 =20 In their Decadency these Virginians practice an elaborate Folly of Courtl= y Love, unmodified since the Dark Ages=85 --The RWC, SDB, Pynchon, M&D.275 Rather reminds me of the narrators in V. (Stencil) In all likelihood, courtly chivalry was never more than an ideal. The ear= liest writers to mention it commonly lament its decay, but in doing so th= ey overlook that in the form which they would like it to assume it has on= ly just come into existence in their dreams. It is the essence of an idea= l that its decay should be lamented in the very moment it is clumsily str= iving for fulfillment. Moreover, to contrast the fiction of some ideal of= living with tyrannical reality is precisely something possible in romanc= e.=20 =20 =20 In the early days of colonization, every new settlement represented an id= ea and proclaimed a mission. Virginia was founded by a great, liberal mov= ement aiming at the spread of English liberty and empire. The Pilgrims of= Plymouth, the Puritans of Boston, the Quakers of Pennsylvania, all avowe= d a moral purpose, and began by making institutions that consciously refl= ected a moral idea. No such character belonged to the colonization of 180= 0. From Lake Erie to Florida, in long, unbroken line, pioneers were at wo= rk, cutting into the forests with the energy of so many beavers, and with= no more express moral purpose than the beavers they drove away. The civi= lization they carried with them was rarely illumined by an idea; they sou= ght room for no new truth, and aimed neither at creating, like the Purita= ns, a government of saints, nor, like the Quakers, one of love and peace;= they left such experiments behind them, and wrestled only with the harde= st problems of frontier life. No wonder ! that foreign observers, and even the educated, well-to-do Americans of th= e sea-coast, could seldom see anything to admire in the ignorance and bru= tality of frontiersmen, and should declare that virtue and wisdom no long= er guided the United States=85To a new society, ignorant and semi-barbaro= us, a mass of demagogues insisted on applying every stimulant that could = inflame its worst appetite, while at the same instant taking away every i= nfluence that had hitherto helped to restrain its passions. Greed for wea= lth, lust for power, yearning for the blank void of savage freedom such a= s Indians and wolves delight in, -- these were the fires that flamed unde= r the cauldron of American society, in which, as conservatives believed, = the old, welll-proven, conservative crust of religion, government, family= , and even common respect for age, education, and experience was rapidly = melting away, and was indeed already broken into fragments, swept about b= y the seething mass of scum ever rising in ! greater quantities to the surface.=20 =20 --Henry Adams, American Ideals 1800 For him our Revolution was in vain; to him our Declaration of Independenc= e was a lie."=20 --Melville, White Jacket But the treatment of flogging in White Jacket is not quite as uncomplicat= ed as it might appear at first. Oh no, Melville, like Pynchon and the gre= at Americans, is never uncomplicated, but is playing that unique American= role, the Confidence Man and projector of tall-tales that might amuse us= out of folly.=20 =20 Otto <[email protected]> wrote: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Mackin"=20 To:=20 Sent: Sunday, June 30, 2002 10:35 PM Subject: Re: MDDM Washington > > Otto quoting a couple of critics contributes what will no doubt be gris= t > for the p-list mill. Thanks, Otto. > Hi Paul, I can detect Irony when I smell it . . . but I don't fight Windwills. It would have not been a very scientific attitude reading the Essays, finding the Quotes, regarding them as (somewhat) fitting & maybe helpful = and *not* posting the snips & urls to the List for Discussion just out of personal and/or ideological Reasons. Play the Ball, Paul, and not the Man. Nice Monday Morning & I'm beginning with the Work on my new Flat. I'm moving, just one Story down, but: "O, my back, my back, my bach! I'd want to go to Aches-les-Pains." (JJ, FW 213) Otto _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Sign-up for Video Highlights of 2002 FIFA World Cup --0-186927179-1025521858=:19812 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by waste.org id g61HaqZY011060 <P> <FONT size=3D4> <P>Otto asked, </P> <P>What should that be? </P> <P>Not that TRP is Doug or Jbore, but an American author of American fict= ion. </P> <P>Certainly not that I am Monica or that I ever wrote an off-list post t= o either Kai or Jbore. Both lie. Certainly not a Post worth our time from= Weaver or the other jackasses here who only call people names. As Jbore,= sitting on a cornflake, says, it=92s sad and pathetic. Send me the bill = Doctor Jbore, you can=92t keep me from jumping out your window. </P> <P>While Marx and Hegel may be read in TRP, they are ridiculed. Like Niet= zsche and Emerson. Dialecticians, like Norman O. Brown, are important to = Pynchon, but only as crank theories. </P> <P> </P> <P>It=92s in the tension dear King. </P> <P>--Lear=92s Fool </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P>In their Decadency these Virginians practice an elaborate Folly of Cou= rtly Love, unmodified since the Dark Ages=85</P> <P>--The RWC, SDB, Pynchon, M&D.275</P> <P>Rather reminds me of the narrators in V. (Stencil)</P> <P>In all likelihood, courtly chivalry was never more than an ideal. The = earliest writers to mention it commonly lament its decay, but in doing so= they overlook that in the form which they would like it to assume it has= only just come into existence in their dreams. It is the essence of an i= deal that its decay should be lamented in the very moment it is clumsily = striving for fulfillment. Moreover, to contrast the fiction of some ideal= of living with tyrannical reality is precisely something possible in rom= ance. </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P>In the early days of colonization, every new settlement represented an= idea and proclaimed a mission. Virginia was founded by a great, liberal = movement aiming at the spread of English liberty and empire. The Pilgrims= of Plymouth, the Puritans of Boston, the Quakers of Pennsylvania, all av= owed a moral purpose, and began by making institutions that consciously r= eflected a moral idea. No such character belonged to the colonization of = 1800. From Lake Erie to Florida, in long, unbroken line, pioneers were at= work, cutting into the forests with the energy of so many beavers, and w= ith no more express moral purpose than the beavers they drove away. The c= ivilization they carried with them was rarely illumined by an idea; they = sought room for no new truth, and aimed neither at creating, like the Pur= itans, a government of saints, nor, like the Quakers, one of love and pea= ce; they left such experiments behind them, and wrestled only with the ha= rdest problems of frontier life. No wond! er that foreign observers, and even the educated, well-to-do Americans of= the sea-coast, could seldom see anything to admire in the ignorance and = brutality of frontiersmen, and should declare that virtue and wisdom no l= onger guided the United States=85To a new society, ignorant and semi-barb= arous, a mass of demagogues insisted on applying every stimulant that cou= ld inflame its worst appetite, while at the same instant taking away ever= y influence that had hitherto helped to restrain its passions. Greed for = wealth, lust for power, yearning for the blank void of savage freedom suc= h as Indians and wolves delight in, -- these were the fires that flamed u= nder the cauldron of American society, in which, as conservatives believe= d, the old, welll-proven, conservative crust of religion, government, fam= ily, and even common respect for age, education, and experience was rapid= ly melting away, and was indeed already broken into fragments, swept abou= t by the seething mass of scum ever rising ! in greater quantities to the surface. </P> <P> </P> <P>--Henry Adams, American Ideals 1800</P> <P>For him our Revolution was in vain; to him our Declaration of Independ= ence was a lie." </P> <P>--Melville, White Jacket</P> <P>But the treatment of flogging in White Jacket is not quite as uncompli= cated as it might appear at first. Oh no, Melville, like Pynchon and the = great Americans, is never uncomplicated, but is playing that unique Ameri= can role, the Confidence Man and projector of tall-tales that might amuse= us out of folly. </P> <P> </P></FONT> <P> <B><I>Otto <[email protected]></I></B> wrote:=20 <BLOCKQUOTE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PA= DDING-LEFT: 5px">----- Original Message -----<BR>From: "Paul Mackin" <PAU= [email protected]><BR>To: <[email protected]><BR>Sent: Sunday, Juune= 30, 2002 10:35 PM<BR>Subject: Re: MDDM Washington<BR><BR>><BR>> Ot= to quoting a couple of critics contributes what will no doubt be grist<BR= >> for the p-list mill. Thanks, Otto.<BR>><BR><BR>Hi Paul,<BR>I can= detect Irony when I smell it . . . but I don't fight Windwills.<BR><BR>I= t would have not been a very scientific attitude reading the Essays,<BR>f= inding the Quotes, regarding them as (somewhat) fitting & maybe helpf= ul and<BR>*not* posting the snips & urls to the List for Discussion j= ust out of<BR>personal and/or ideological Reasons.<BR><BR>Play the Ball, = Paul, and not the Man.<BR><BR>Nice Monday Morning & I'm beginning wit= h the Work on my new Flat. I'm<BR>moving, just one Story down, but:<BR><B= R>"O, my back, my back, my bach! I'd want t! o go to Aches-les-Pains."<BR>(JJ, FW 213)<BR><BR>Otto<BR><BR><BR>________= _________________________________________________<BR>Do You Yahoo!?<BR>Ge= t your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com<BR></BLOCKQUOTE><= p><br><hr size=3D1><b>Do You Yahoo!?</b><br> <a href=3D"http://rd.yahoo.com/welcome/*http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com/fc/= en/spl">Sign-up for Video Highlights</a> of 2002 FIFA World Cup --0-186927179-1025521858=:19812--