Re: Bitcoin: "tied cryptologically to all the criminal activities that contributed to its shared value"

https://theintercept.com/2018/03/20/the-nsa-worked-to-track-down-bitcoin-users-snowden-documents-reveal/

On 4/15/2013 9:50 PM, Joseph S. Barrera III wrote:
> "tied cryptologically to all the criminal activities that contributed to 
> its shared value"
> 
> Greg, you've seen this, but I post this for folks on this list who haven't.
> 
> I'm curious if anyone can convincingly refute the following statements 
> from this article. Oh, and also note: 
> http://www.aclu.org/blog/technology-and-liberty-national-security/new-documents-suggest-irs-reads-emails-without-warrant 
> 
> 
> http://market-ticker.org/akcs-www?post=219284
> 
> ".... In order to do this the system that implements the currency must 
> maintain and expose a full and complete record of each and every 
> transfer from the origin of that particular coin forward!
> 
> "This is the only way I can know that nobody else was presented the same 
> token before I was, and that the last transfer made of that token was to 
> you.  I must know with certainty that both of these conditions are true, 
> and then to be able to spend that coin I must make the fact that I hold 
> it and you transferred it to me known to everyone as well.
> 
> "Now consider the typical clandestine transaction -- Joe wishes to buy a 
> bag of pot, which happens to be illegal to transact.  He has Bitcoins to 
> buy the pot with.  He finds a dealer willing to sell the pot despite it 
> being illegal to do so, and transfers the coins to the dealer.  The 
> dealer must verify the block chain of the coins to insure that he is not 
> being given coins that were already spent on gasoline or that Joe didn't 
> counterfeit them, and then he transfers the pot to Joe.  There is now an 
> indelible and permanent record of the transfer of funds and that record 
> will never go away.
> 
> "This creates several problems for both Joe and the dealer.  The dealer 
> can (and might) take steps such as using "throw-away" wallets to try to 
> unlink the transfer from his person, but that's dangerous.  In all 
> jurisdictions "structuring" transactions to evade money laundering or 
> reporting constraints is a separate and unique crime and usually is a 
> felony.  Therefore, the very act of trying to split up transactions or 
> use of "throw-away" wallets in and of itself is likely to be ruled a 
> crime, leaving any party doing that exposed to separate and distinct 
> criminal charges (along with whatever else they can bust you for.)
> 
> "Second, due to the indelible nature of the records you're exposed for 
> much longer that with traditional currencies to the risk of a bust and 
> in many cases you might be exposed for the rest of your life.  In 
> particular if there is a tax evasion issue that arises you're in big 
> trouble because there is no statute of limitations on willful 
> non-reporting of taxes in the United States, along with many other 
> jurisdictions.  Since the records never go away your exposure, once you 
> engage in a transaction that leads to liability, is permanent.
> 
> "Third, because Bitcoin is not state-linked and thus fluctuates in value 
> there is an FX tax issue.  Let's say you "buy" Bitcoins (whether for 
> cash or in exchange for a good or service you provide) at a time when 
> they have a "value" of $5 each against the US dollar.  You spend them 
> when they have a "value" of $20 each.  You have a capital gain of $15. 
> At the time of the sale you have a tax liability too, and I'm willing to 
> bet you didn't keep track of it or report it.  That liability never goes 
> away as it was wilfully evaded and yet the ability to track the 
> transaction never goes away either! [...]"
> 
> 
> On 11/16/2012 8:25 AM, Gregory Alan Bolcer wrote:
>  > Bitcoin, while elegant in theory, is blood money, tied 
> cryptologically to all the criminal activities that contributed to its 
> shared value--with its participants condoning that criminal activity by 
> being compensated through accretive value by turning a blind eye to that 
> very same criminal activity.
>  >
>  > Greg
>  >
>  > On 11/16/2012 8:13 AM, Gary Stock wrote:
>  >>
>  >> Does ZS have a "loyal opposition"?  The presentation is appealing, but
>  >> avoids revealing any weaknesses.
>  >>
>  >> Brief examples of triggers of doubt:
>  >>
>  >> Discussing BCI, without ever defining the acronym, suggests a mild but
>  >> natural flavor of "inbreeding toward irrelevance."  It leaves me
>  >> wondering if the group is too self-referential.
>  >>
>  >> Pitching Bitcoin as so highly profitable has all the hallmarks of an
>  >> investment scam.  It leaves me wondering if the group is unaware of how
>  >> that appears to outsiders.
>  >>
>  >> Can someone recommend a usable -- i.e., rational, moderate, concise --
>  >> statement of ways in which ZS or bitcoin may ~not~ work as intended?
>  >>
>  >> Of what has not been said, but might ~need~ to be considered?
>  >>
>  >> Thanks,
>  >> GS
>  >>
>  >> On 11/16/12 5:13 AM, Eugen Leitl wrote:
>  >>> ----- Forwarded message from "ZeroState.net"<[email protected]>  
> -----
>  >>>
>  >>> From: "ZeroState.net"<[email protected]>
>  >>> Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2012 09:34:57 +0000
>  >>> To: Doctrine Zero<[email protected]>,
>  >>>     [email protected]
>  >>> Subject: Reminder: ZSF launch event tomorrow! Please help spread the
>  >>> word if
>  >>>     you can!
>  >>> Reply-To: [email protected]
>  >>>
>  >>> Reminder: ZSF launch event tomorrow! Please help spread the word if
>  >>> you can!
>  >>>
>  >>> http://zerostate.net/ZSF.html
>  >>>
>  >>> ZSF - The Zero State Fund - is a mutual fund being planned by and for
>  >>> Zero State citizens and friends.
>  >>>
>  >>> This is an important historical opportunity for avowed Transhumanists
>  >>> and others aware of a radically disruptive future to achieve a degree
>  >>> of control over their collective fates by beginning to gather
>  >>> resources and a degree of influence over how world events affect us.
>  >>>
>  >>> It is particularly important that you inform yourself ahead of the
>  >>> launch event by watching the Youtube presentation beforehand, and
>  >>> thinking about it carefully. Please also allow yourself time to test
>  >>> the Openqwaq client software (again, details below), to minimise the
>  >>> chance of having any difficulties on the day.
>  >>>
>  >>> The following message is from Anu (Rudiger Koch), regarding the ZSF
>  >>> launch event on November 17th, 2012:
>  >>>
>  >>>
>  >>> Hi all,
>  >>>
>  >>> I'd like to invite you to the first virtual ZSF conference on Nov
>  >>> 17th, 18:00h UTC ( 05:00h ZST). This meeting will start where the
>  >>> Youtube presentation (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QihIz59sfxY) ends
>  >>> - it will mainly be a panel discussion of the Zero State Fund (ZSF).
>  >>>
>  >>> A video of the event will be published via this webpage
>  >>> (http://zerostate.net/ZSF.html) immediately after discussion has
>  >>> finished, and an email thread will be created for discussion of
>  >>> pledges on the main Zero State mailing list:
>  >>> http://groups.google.com/group/DoctrineZero
>  >>>
>  >>> Pledges are currently at $6,015 for options, $48,120 for shares. As
>  >>> the minimum initial capital for a mutual fund in St.Kitts is $100,000,
>  >>> we need at least $12,500 in pledges on options to reach that. But we
>  >>> need to be a bit higher just to make sure.
>  >>>
>  >>> Deadline for Pledges will be Nov 19, 24:00h ZST. If at this point we
>  >>> have more than $15,000 in pledges, ZSF will happen, otherwise it will
>  >>> be canceled and a chance for ZS to shape history will have passed
>  >>> unused.
>  >>>
>  >>> The Conference will take place in Openqwaq. Please get the client
>  >>> software from:
>  >>>
>  >>> http://qwaq.3dicc.com/client/
>  >>>
>  >>> Please ask Eugen [[email protected]] for a login.
>  >>>
>  >>> We'll meet at the teleXLR8 Main Conference Hall.
>  >>>
>  >>> Thanks
>  >>> Anu
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