RE: Re: Hole in the wall... looking at othe r issues (fwd)

More on the Hole-in-The-Wall. Parimala, please join the
BytesForAll-READERS list on www.sarai.net. FN

On Tue, 29 Oct 2002, Parimala Inamdar wrote:


> Just a couple more thoughts on this hotly debated topic.  
> 
> Experiments such as Hole In The Wall also seek to prove a hypothesis at a
> mass level, not at an individual one.  Therefore anecdotal stories of
> individual successes of Indians abroad, while interesting, don't go further
> towards building alternative strategies for education.
> 
> To my mind, experiments such as Hole in the Wall also seek to research the
> fact that subjects that are assumed to need "teaching" by a formal system
> and hence require considerable resource deployment, may in fact be "learned"
> by children if given adequate access and minimal intervention.  That an
> alternative "learning system" may be emerging to bridge the digital divide.
> Its not merely about putting a computer in the middle of the road.    
> 
> We are in fact discussing children in disadvantaged areas where 1 or 2 year
> olds do not have nintendo at home... and of how group learning happens in
> that context.  Simply put the experiment, I guess, seeks to make access
> available to them and observe what and how they learn and if the results are
> replicable and predictable.  
> 
> It should impact the future of the design of learning systems
> 
> regards,
> 
> Parimala Inamdar
> The Design Lab
> Center for Research In Cognitive Systems, NIIT Ltd
> Corduroy Building, Aditya Textile Mills Compound
> Safed Pool, Andheri East
> Mumbai, India
> ph:91-22-8513514/16/18
> fax: 91-22-8513504
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From:	Sugata Mitra 
> > Sent:	Monday, October 28, 2002 3:29 PM
> > To:	Frederick Noronha; Joel Alma Brink; Ritu Dangwal; Parimala Inamdar
> > Cc:	Layton Montgomery
> > Subject:	RE: [Bytesforall_Readers] Re: Hole in the wall... looking at
> > other issues (fwd)
> > 
> > Thanks for a clear explanation. I do hope the issues are adequately
> > addressed now. 
> > 
> > Regards, 
> > 
> > Sugata Mitra 
> > Centre for Research in Cognitive Systems 
> > Synergy Building 
> > IIT Campus 
> > Haus Khas 
> > New Delhi 110 016 
> > India 
> > If you must speak or fax: 
> > Telephone: +91 11 658 1022 direct, 658 1017-20 ext 7001 
> > Fax: +91 11 658 1022/23 
> > 
> > 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Frederick Noronha [mailto:[email protected]] 
> > Sent: Monday, October 28, 2002 1:27 PM
> > To: [email protected]
> > Cc: Layton Montgomery
> > Subject: Re: [Bytesforall_Readers] Re: Hole in the wall... looking at
> > other issues (fwd)
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> > 
> > Dear Satish et al,
> > 
> > I have read bits and pieces about Hole-in-the-Wall, including some of
> > the stuff on their website.
> > 
> > > however, point is made- that kids in 6 to 13 age group can learn to
> > > navigate a compter without anyone's help. but if kids from 2 or 3
> > > onwards can do it without manual because they could not read anyway,
> > > what is the gain in proving that point. we presume if something can be
> > > done by grade 1 students, grade 3 students can do that anyway. if not
> > > there may be other issues involved.
> > 
> > I am from an education background, having been a teacher in government
> > schools (amongst other positions in education) in Southern Africa, South
> > Asia, Eastern Europe, the US, and Australia.  I think the point here is
> > not just to show that it is possible, but to explore how it works, under
> > what circumstances, for what types of knowledge, etc, and finally how to
> > incorporate it into education systems.  The original hole in the wall
> > had significant monitoring to explore these questions.  As a result of
> > analysis of this data, modifications were made to the computer interface
> > they used to increase the accessibility of the computer.
> > 
> > Still, I remember thinking at that time that, just because it worked in
> > a poor urban setting, that did not necessarily mean it would work in
> > rural areas.  The work in Maharastra has proven that to be the case as
> > well.
> > 
> > > i am also sensitive to it because it sounds a little racist to me that
> > > what the kids in industrial world can do at age 3 the kids in slums
> > > can do at 6 to 13. I have found some of the children who beg on the
> > > streets of delhi extraordinarily intelligent in several cases but with
> > > a lack of opportunities they may not achieve their potential. but does
> > > that need to be proved. intelligence is almost evenly distributed
> > > across all societies. it is its application, the learning curve that
> > > we are on, the experiences we have, the culture we live in may shape
> > > many of our preferences.
> > 
> > I thoroughly and emphatically agree with all your points here, except
> > the questioning of the need to prove it.  I have not come across any
> > such claims, and would like to hear from you where or by whom such
> > claims were made.  Funding decisions are very political, and whatever
> > studies supporters of these points have access to, the stronger their
> > case for funding initiatives that give access to all levels of learning
> > to disadvantaged youths.  There was a popular film in the US about 15
> > years ago based on a true story about a teacher in a poor inner city
> > school called "Stand and Deliver".  He insisted on teaching calculus to
> > some of his students.  He encountered opposition from other teachers and
> > school administrators.  After a few years, the students were doing so
> > well that officials from the Educational Testing Service (ETS) believed
> > that they must have been cheating.  They did not believe that students
> > from a poor inner city background could do as well as students from
> > elite private schools.  The students were forced to retake the exam
> > under ETS supervision, and they proved that they had not cheated, and
> > their scores were reinstated.
> > 
> > > i am a child of deprivation myself and after getting an opportunity to
> > > go to school i went to harvard, fletcher, and half a dozen schools in
> > > the western world. i perhaps was the youngest editor and heda of a
> > > newsweekly in the national press in india at under 30 years. but if
> > > someone carried out an experiment saying that a child of deprivation
> > > could become the editor of the times of india group at under 30
> > > therefore......... will that prove anything?
> > 
> > Films such as "Stand and Deliver" and projects such as the
> > Hole-in-the-Wall experiment help to emphasize that students from
> > disadvantaged backgrounds have just as much potential as anybody else,
> > and that, given the right context, they can excel.  They will continue
> > to be needed until the disadvantages are eliminated.  Those who benefit
> > from the inequalities will continue to try to maintain the social
> > structures that give them an advantage, and many from disadvantaged
> > backgrounds will continue to believe that there is no sense in even
> > trying to overcome existing obstacles.  I believe that both challenging
> > the perspectives of people from advantaged backgrounds and giving hope
> > and methods for overcoming obstacles to those from disadvantaged
> > backgrounds are equally necessary.  From what you say, you have managed
> > to overcome the odds, and so your insights would be useful to both
> > groups.
> > 
> > > where i have an issue is in turning that into a model that will route
> > > funds into a direction that may not be necessary. that is expensive.
> > > or not cost-effective. each point has its purpose and helps us move
> > > forward as a society. but i have an issue when it directs resources in
> > > a direction that may require greater scrutiny. even more so when the
> > > resiurces are public.
> > 
> > I see the Hole-in-the-Wall experiment as worthwhile research from both
> > an education standpoint and a social change standpoint.  I do not know
> > about the significant funding you object to, and from what I have read,
> > they are doing more than simply putting computers in different places
> > and watching.  Also, from a scientific standpoint, the more widely an
> > experimental result is verified, the more it is taken to be valid.
> > Nevertheless, your point about prioritising funding initiatives is well
> > taken.  I would be interested in hearing more specifics about where you
> > see money within the project being used for unnecessary duplication.
> > 
> > > i get upset when someone like the ceo of globalvision - at the
> > > strength of the argument provided by one of our own colleagues- comes
> > > and tells me in an email that 15 year old indian kids could be less
> > > intelligent than 3 year old american kids. when i know well that his
> > > asosciate is a child adopted from bihar and brought up in italy and
> > > now has an italian name. for me he is proof enough that we do not need
> > > to prove these points anymore. there was a hollywood film with dan
> > > arkroyd and eddie murphy- for one dollar or something- where the point
> > > was  proved for masses. i thought that should have closed the issue.
> > > the point is about how we can better use of technology not about they
> > > can also learn it and the others can also learn it
> > 
> > I fully agree with you that such statements are upsetting, to say the
> > least. For you or me the associate may be proof enough, but we are not
> > the only ones who needs convincing.  Obviously this CEO has not made the
> > connection even though he is the one with the associate you use as an
> > example.  Also, the movie, "Trading Places", was pure fiction, and so
> > cannot be said to prove anything, really.  The premise was so outrageous
> > that people from both privileged and disadvantaged backgrounds in the US
> > would view it as little more than humorous fantasy.  Thus it would not
> > give a sense of hope to anybody.  It would also not challenge anybody's
> > worldview or show anybody how to improve their situation.  In fact,
> > achieving success purely by a chance encounter with 2 crazy rich stock
> > brokers would only add to a sense of fatalism that assumes that success
> > has nothing to do with ability or effort, and everything to do with just
> > being in the right place at the right time.
> > 
> > Cheers,
> > 
> > Layton Montgomery
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > http://careers.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Careers
> > - 1,000's of jobs waiting online for you!
> > 
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