MSS>Varun... with a big Hello!

Hello Varun,

I read your email. You appear to be one intelligent, enthusiastic youngster=
, full of hopes and
promises, with a luxury of studying in a foreign country. I am quite gratef=
ul for your kind
attention: how long did you take to type out your response? I took about tw=
o hours with your email
(not that i don't have other things to do, though), and even discussed itwi=
th my friends' circle
subsequently; see, i do respect you and your views.

How are you doing now and how was your weekend? Do you still want to havemy=
 response to your email,
or the dust has settled down?

What about the others in this group, still require free entertainment from =
Varun and myself? Varun,
why don't you and i form a "Coalition" and start billing the other guys in =
this group? There is no
"free lunch" these days! Afterall, this is the dharma of Indian politics to=
day!

:)

Cheers.

MSS


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> Message: 3
>    Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2004 14:43:22 -0800 (PST)
>    From: Varun Venkateswaran <varunvenkat_82-/[email protected]>
> Subject: Varun's counter response to MSS's on bureaucracy, democracy, etc=
.
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> Hello Mr. Suresh:
> Thanks for stirring me up, i was just quiet not asleep.
> I have my own responses to yours(in bold) but before that I would make a =
point or two...
> You confess to have read my email 2 times, line by line, but still u have=
 wrongly interpreted some points...
> the word 'you' in my article did not mean you, M.S.Suresh, but majorityof=
 Indians.
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> Your responses have bordered more on questioning the credibility of thewr=
iter, me, (and consequently on who you are) and less on my writing. Even if=
 I have no qualifications (i feel no one needs one on these topics),even if=
 i am a right wing sympathizer or whatever you  think I am, I have right to=
 talk and you should focus on what I am saying and not on me, Dispute my po=
ints instead of asking who I am. I do not think this group isonly for peopl=
e with certain qualifications.
> When I replied to ur points Idid not care about who you were, I didn't as=
k u- are u a left/Congress sympathizer (since u feel I could be a rightist =
and since u have opposite views u should be a left leaner?), because I know=
 there a lot of people who fall in the centre. I know this group's motto an=
d i do not function as  a 'pro-this' or 'pro-that'
> Anyway since u are curious, I am 22 years old, Masters student at the Uni=
versity of Michigan, I have a mind to perceive things around me, a mouth to=
 talk and hands to write. Of course I am curious to know who you guysare, b=
ut I think that is irrelevant to this topic. So I didn't ask.
> If possible send my response too to your friends.
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>>  Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 10:48:06 -0800 (PST)
>>  From: Varun Venkateswaran=20
>>Subject: Re: bureaucracy vs democracy,  utopia and dr apj abdul kalaam
>>
>>
>>dictatorship will never work...it has never worked anywhere in the world.=
..India is better off with democracy... if d'ship is panacea to all ills th=
en Pakistan should be way above us!! Very often people look at the mess aro=
und them and decide "yea we need a strongman to make things work"...but whe=
n they say that (I don't know about you) they dont really consider themselv=
es, they are talking about the rest,=20
>>"only they need to be controlled, not me i am ok...."
>>
>>
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> Response-MSS: I never said dictatorship will work. I only say,=20
> dictatorship is one great "possible alternative to a specific context=20
> called India, post 1947". Personally, i have advocated Bureaucracy to=20
> replace Democracy, with a precise mention on the critical priorities.=20
> Hope you have been following my earlier email about Muthu's model. And=20
> yes, i am one of those people who feel "yea, we need a strongman (I like=
=20
> this woman Carly Fiorina!) to make things work". There are three things=20
> to this: One: I know that i am not strong enough to make certain things=20
> work. Two: Strong people in India get killed and nothing is done about=20
> it (like Indira Gandhi and Rajiv Gandhi... and no, i am not in/with=20
> Congress). Three: I know i am not OK, but i doubt if others do: people=20
> thought i was foolish to observe rules, but gratefully accept it when i=20
> make a few for their benefit.
> Varun's Response:
> No, even I never thought u said d'ship would work. U said it is one of th=
e alternatives, I said " no rule out that alternative because it is notgonn=
a work". I still stand by my views on other things mentioned above. India a=
lready has a bureaucratic set-up (as my friend Raja Bharathi wouldknow) - w=
ith a clear hierarchy, leaders, managers, responsibility and all that u men=
tioned thru the Muthu's model. There are built in checks and tabs in the sy=
stem. I said it is like a pyramid, u called it a hierarchy.So why is the sy=
stem not 100% efficient - there are a number of reasons-I will set it for a=
nother debate. Also, Rajiv Gandhi was not really strong person (no , i am n=
ot getting into politics and I am not in/with BJP)
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>>If u see the countries that attained independence after world war II (lik=
e us)....in africa, indonesia etc etc...only india is doing well despite it=
s huge(monstrous?) population, a society divided in every possible way-lang=
uage, religion, status, caste and what not....those smaller nationswere not=
 so much at a disadvantage as us...today they are in shambles, why? becos t=
he very leaders who got them freedom (or someone else who  came later) turn=
ed into corrupt despots...suharto, mobutu and the ilk- the first few years =
everything will be good, no crime(becos he will be the only one left!!) pea=
ce etc, but slowly it begins to unravel...u can see it today!
>>In contrast, India has done remarkably well - we have built atleast a fou=
ndation, a launch pad, future progress is in the hands of her people...it i=
s a vibrant society where u and me have the freedom(u might ask "really?". =
"Yes!!") to debate (unlike China, where they run down dissent with tanks) a=
bout what is wrong with the country, we can question the leaders,we can thr=
ow them out of power (although i doubt whether we use it)
>>=20
>>
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> Response-MSS: Let me re-phrase your first sentence: Population is the=20
> first HUGE problem in India. I have mentioned this as my first critical=20
> priority in my Muthu's model. To start with, do you know India's "exact"=
=20
> population? At a given point in time, in the USA or in some European=20
> countries, it is possible to have a status report on how many locals,=20
> how many foreigners, how many emmigrants and immigrants, how many=20
> tourists are there in the homeland. Is this possible in India? And my=20
> friend, Africa is not a nation, Africa is NOT small, and in Africa there=
=20
> is no war, but just  a few massacres of just around a few thousands of=20
> women, children (like the hutus and tutsis), a few droughts and famines=20
> to leave a few hundred or so diseased or deceased... to name a few. Are=20
> you comparing India with Africa and other SEAsian countries? Many of=20
> those 'smaller nations' in SE Asia are NOT in shambles; Western business=
=20
> empires call those 'small' countries as havens for huge business=20
> opportunities. Do you know that India enjoys the third or fourth most=20
> favoured status in the SE Asian Region for business in the IT/ITES=20
> domains? As for the 'freedom to debate', my friend, you are probably=20
> under-informed about this item in India vis a vis other countries. Noam=20
> Chomsky (Polish Professor in the USA) was given a Nobel Prize,=20
> eventhough he "condemns" the USA. Is there anyone like Chomsky in India?=
=20
> Even if there is one, will he/she dare put forth opinions the way=20
> Chomsky does? Even if he/she does, will he be given atleast a=20
> "recognition", though not a  Bharat Ratna or a Nobel Prize? USA is a=20
> place where people not only "debate", they also "act". In India, we can=20
> do neither; even if we do atleast one, we either ape the West, or we=20
> don't do it efficiently. Again: "Sad, but True". (Metallica may be=20
> American, Heavy Metal may be American, but the Spirit and the Power of=20
> Metal is Universal! 8-) )
> Varun's response: I know Africa is not a nation, atleast that much I know=
. Probably I phrased the sentence wrongly - I am sorry, By saying "in Afric=
a" I meant the countries that make up Africa the continent.=20
> War is not necessarily fought between two nations on a battlefield, If u =
meant that that then i accept there is no war - but haven't u heard of term=
s "internal civil war" (u know USA right?), a war fought between govt. and =
forces inimical to it. Such wars come by a dozen in Africa - there is a war=
 between hutus and tutsis (not some local feud between two villages) and of=
ten Hutu majority nations(or vice versa) covertly support theHutu rebels in=
 neighboring Tutsi majority country- so that is "proxy war" (u know India t=
oo). It is happening in Rwanda, somalia, zaire etc etc. and  Since when did=
 death of a few thousands  become so cheap an amount? Man, that is war! The=
 result of the years of war and plundering was  famine, disease etc.  That =
is what is happening in all those nations, despitebeing so rich in natural =
resources.
> The point about africa or indonesia was made in the context of dictatorsh=
ip. And yes i am comparing India with african and SEAsian conutries, becaus=
e we all got freedom at the same time, we were all part of NAM, and India w=
as a source of inspiration to the freedom movements in these nations.=20
> You have not really disputed my point and your argument is weak and speci=
ous.insofar, MFN is concerned where do these SE asian countries stand in ot=
her regions?   India is doing  really well compared to them: in space, defe=
nse, food production, IT, maufacturing, retail.  The south east asian econo=
my went bust a long time back, so many people were thrown out of their jobs=
 (u can read articles about that, I have done an essay on that).  India had=
 only one crisis in '91 and we have recovered really well(thanks to Cong, w=
hich has sadly not realised that it is the reason and is running an 'India =
cheated' campaign).
> I did not compare 'freedom to debate' with USA, (how could i do that, sin=
ce I admire them so much as you say), I compared with China. (Read escape f=
rom china by zhang boli). In India we have Arundhati Roy, Medha Patkar,Bahu=
guna etc all very well recognised in national and international circles and=
 the govt has not raised a finger against them(only the courts did).Even Dr=
. Ambedkar was a dissident in a way - isn't he recognised?  Noam Chomsky(bo=
rn in US, son of a Russian immigrant) supports US govt on many issues, he h=
imself has said that. His winning the Nobel Prize is news to me, thank u. a=
nd yes we ape the west: bureaucracy and red tape are legacies of the Britis=
h.
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>>What is wrong with India?...rome was not built in a day, america took age=
s to develop, development is a continuous and painfully slow process and In=
dians are whiners(Sorry to say that, that included me too), we will complai=
n about politicians being rogues, law breakers- but we ourselves dothat eve=
ryday in our life, in a smaller scale-- like going down a one-way("what eve=
rybody does, why not me!!")...and if the cop catches u, u curse him for bei=
ng dutiful only when it comes to you ...and try to bribe him, thereby embol=
dening the cop to keep demanding bribes..., like litteringthe streets(ditto=
), like getting a license thro a tout becos u think that is the only way to=
 do that, u never care to find out the procedure,u gostraight to the tout t=
o finish the job quickly as if he is the RTO...andjustify it again .."uff, =
so many procedures(as if u know), who has the time??"....but u will sit glu=
ed to the television for 8 hours seeing the India-Pak match.
>>
>>
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> Response-MSS: Hey, don't call me a whiner - i am more proud an Indian=20
> than any other Indian who runs away to the USA. India is a civilization=20
> that is over 5000 years old - for that matter - remnants, knowledge and=20
> history since 5000 BC still do exist. The "United States of America"=20
> that we all know, is just since the 17th Century AD. India has seen=20
> diverse Systems of Governance, but could not hold on to any single one=20
> eventhough we had Vishnugupta Chanakya, Manu and others who produced the=
=20
> great Manuals and Shashtras for Strategies and Administration, War,=20
> Family... etc. What India now has are the remains of the dogfoodbullshit=
=20
> excreted at our faces by the Britons since 19th Century: the 100 odd=20
> times re-written Constitution with full of loopholes, dilapidated=20
> Buildings, frequently bombed railroads, plundered Temple Wealth,=20
> mal-adapted western culture, lack of a National Identity... to name just=
=20
> a few. Please bear in mind that Americans, since their 1774-1776,=20
> constituted their own "Democracy", Culture, Language (oh, for those who=20
> didnot know, the language spoken in the USA is NOT English, it is called=
=20
> "American"), Religion etc., and are yet consistently since then 75%=20
> ahead of India in their growth factor. Unless someone is on=20
> hallucinogens, i think such unfortunate realities about why "India is=20
> sick" would certainly "wake up" any true Indian. About your other points=
=20
> about the basic attitude - i perfectly agree with you, (i don't do=20
> sports or cricket or break traffic rules) that is why i say we need a=20
> strong arm to enforce and implement rules. You understood it as=20
> dictatorship, i call it bureaucracy.
> Varun's response: Again , u have talked about yourself,  but my point sti=
ll remains, majority of indians break the law in small ways.u may be anexce=
ption. Thanks for agreeing with me. Strong arm tactics will work in small c=
ountries like Singapore(smaller than chennai), will simply not function in =
countries like India. Govt. can only frame rules, implement themto an exten=
t, but the onus is on the people to follow them.
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>>Politicians have not descended from heaven, they are people like u and me=
 and Muthu, so they continue doing it even after coming to power !! It sets=
 in a vicious circle...people corrupt, so politicians corrupt, so people co=
rrupt/indifferent.....
>>
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> Response-MSS: My friend, Politicians certainly have descended from=20
> heaven. Why then are they able to accomplish what they wanted, whilst=20
> you, Muthu and i keep "whining" about our inabilities or selfishly mind=20
> our own business of securing personal interests? We are the "Pushpaka=20
> Vimaanams" that have brought those Politicians from heaven. We Indians,=20
> sinful sinners, have sinfully sinned by sinfully committing a sinful act=
=20
> called voting.  How will we blissfully be absolved of all our sinful sins=
?
> Varun's response: Politicians are from good old earth, only they are more=
 enterprising. They know the ways(we too know) to make money and are willin=
g to dirty their hands to dig out the gold. They are big time thieves. You,=
 Muthu and I are not risk-takers. And we tend to vote for the better evil, =
if at all we vote, not to a number of sincere independents who are in the f=
ray. We do not care about them and we think our vote will be wasted. That's=
 true in a way. The democracy, that is India, has come up with a solution t=
hru' its bureaucratic arm, the EC, to regulate criminalisation of politics.
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>>This is where USA (yes, the country Indians consider to be immoral) is di=
fferent, people may be ignorant about other nations or their history, but w=
hen it comes to their law they know like the back of their hand. And abide =
rules. Their private lives maybe all screwed up, but their public life is s=
till impeccable. That is why even though there are some corrupt politicians=
, inept bureaucracy(govt. offices are slow here too!!), it doesnot permeate=
 thru the society, the base of the pyramid is still solid!
>>
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> Response-MSS: Oh, so you admire USA and you are presently staying there=20
> because you did not like this rotten India with its corrupt systems?=20
> Forgive me dear friend, but your understanding about the USA (and about=20
> Indians likewise) requires a lot, lot, lot, lot, lot, lot, lot, lot of=20
> corrections. For your information, i am part of a company that conducts=20
> Inter-Cultural Sensitization Programmes for IT Companies sending their=20
> professionals going abroad - would you like to attend one of our Courses=
=20
> on American Inter-Cultural Sensitization?
> Varun's response:- This is where I found ur response to be directed again=
st me, not my view. So what if I am in US, so what if i point out the good =
things in it- just dispute my point. And u did not. My point was US people =
by and large follow laws, not about inter-cultural whatever.In India this i=
s lacking, i dint say it is rotten, only u say it is sick.  I praised US on=
ly on this count. Not anything else. Maybe in other aspects my judgement of=
 US needs a lot, lot,....corrections. And I will sure attend your course so=
meday.
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>>So, the solution lies in correcting the base of the pyramid, the people.
>>How do you do that? Not actually by d'ship or bureaucracy or even literac=
y (even educated people break laws!!..more than illiterates i would say)...=
it needs a collective change in the attitude of the people, it is notgonna =
come in one day or one decade, it is a continuous. painfully slow process..=
.It has been happening for the last 55 years, it may have faltered in betwe=
en or slowed down, but the spark is still there...in this dataage, people a=
re getting more and more knowledgeable and questioning..so it will happen a=
 bit faster than the prev. generation. The utopia will not happen in 2020, =
it is happening and the changes will be tangible, yearsdown the line. Somet=
hing like, u know -- we never realise that we are getting old every day but=
 20 years down the line we will know that for sure!!
>>India has been shining always, like the sun behind the clouds, the BJP ha=
s been shrewd to realise it and is tapping it, claiming credit for inventin=
g (or discovering?) the sun, when it has been there all the time. Congress =
and co., sadly, continue to delude themselves that there is no sun !
>>
>>And the population is already showing signs off stabilising...it will... =
huge population may not be a bad thing, after all the world is made up of h=
umans, and people means power, today the Indian diaspora is spread all over=
 the world, they already considerable forces to reckon with in many nations=
 - so there may be a day when the nation with the largest number of people =
gets a better bargain, gets to control the world.
>>=20
>>
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> Your Holiness Swamiji, may your fortune-telling come true! However,=20
> forgive me again my dear dear friend, but you must know that since my=20
> school days (since 1986), i have been involved with a number of=20
> presentations and discussion forums where a lot of english (such as=20
> above) was rattled among us contenders, with more colour and vigour; one=
=20
> good thing was that my work and participations won me prizes that gave=20
> me a kind of 'kick' when teenaged girls looked at me admiringly.=20
> However, unless someone is on hallucinogens, looks like everyone has to=20
> undergo a passing phase like myself. Forgive me, but how old are you?
> Secondly, are you an RSS/BJP/VHP/Bajrang Dhal=20
> worker/activist/sympathizer/voter/member/associated in any kind? Or=20
> atleast, are you a Congress hater? Hey, are you Varun Gandhi, son of=20
> Maneka Gandhi, in disguise? I liked Indira Gandhi, i liked Rajiv Gandhi,=
=20
> but it is quite unfortunate and a rude shock that they were=20
> assassinated; now, i like this woman Maneka Gandhi as well; may she live=
=20
> long!
> Varun's response- Again this one borders on sarcasm, remarks like swamiji=
 etc.. In that entire response not one point of urs disputed my argument, u=
 were casting aspersions on me and questioning my locus standi. Probably yo=
u could not find anything wrong in what i was saying.I dont know how u got =
that impression but nowhere in my article i have praised the BJP for its go=
vernance. I said it is shrewd or cunning, if that tantamounts to sympathizi=
ng, i can't help it. I can debate about Vajpayee too, if thatwill convice y=
ou
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> Regards
> Varun (not related to Gandhi)
> _______________________
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> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Search - Find what you=92re looking for faster.
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> [This message contained attachments]
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> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
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> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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