Re: on yuksel and the "19" folk - Bible/Hadith use.

salaam all,

I have only been following this dialogue for the past
few days.  I also have a question, has anyone been to
quran.org.  I found that site to be very helpful. 
They too have a section dedicated to the number 19 and
"Quranic Code".  It caught my eye because in the
Nation of Islam, 19 is taught as being sacred too -
which is where I first heard of this notion.  I've not
made heads and tales of it yet...though it seems
consistent and logical, don't know how accurate it is.


Secondly, I must take issue being made with the bible
being used to explain and translate Quran versus the
hadith.  I do believe it is perfectly logical for one
to use "the bible" to interpret and explain and not
Hadith.  While it can be argued that both are really
hadiths, that have been tampered with.  The bible or
better stated the books of the bible span a 3,500 to
4,000 year period.  They truely are remarkable
artifacts, this cannot be said of the hadiths of
Prophet Mohammed, even if authentic.  There are many
references that the Quran makes to well known stories
of the Abrahamic prophets that are not really
expounded on.  It would only make sense to refer to
another document that existed during those times.  If
the books of the bible are used in this context, then
its use seems logical even at the exclusion of the
hadiths.  In the book of Numbers, it gives a proported
head count of the Isrealites at the time of their
"Exodus" out Egypt and into Canaan (I think).  This is
a useful artifact, whether its true or not is
secondary.  The various hadiths simply do not function
in this capacity.  Neither should be used as an
authoritative resource to determine the "single" or
"sole" meaning of this or that in esoteric or legal
matters that the Quran presents.  In this specific
context I think neither are sufficient, but if one
were to be it used it would have to be the proported
hadiths of Mohammed (PBUH).  In any case my main
arguement is that it is conceivable and rational from
a historical view to use the books of the bible and
not the proported hadiths of prophet Mohammed in
translating Quran...my two cents.        

--- Afdhere Jama <[email protected]> wrote:

---------------------------------





salam, uzma, talib, na'eem and others,

yuksel is a lawyer who lives in arizona. in the late
1980s, he was companion of rashad khalifa (the
self-declared messenger of god.) when khalifa was
murdered in his office in 1990 (by nutty
traditionalists, no doubt), yuksel (and others) broke
away from the "mainstream" khalifites (the
"mainstream" are now at submission.org)... claiming
they were becoming like the traditional muslims. 

that said, he still believes rashad khalifa was "the
messenger of the covenant", believes in the supposed
miracle 19 (he is actually the one who started
19.org), etc. 

interestingly enough, in early 1980s, he was jailed in
turkey because he was somehow involved with terrorist
groups that called for islamist rule in the country.
at that time, he was die-hard sunni and since he
believed in the complete authenticity of the hadiths,
which rashad khalifa proclaimed was satanic, he became
very much anti-khalifa, even threatened him. later, in
prison, he became a believer :)

i'm always up for any muslims who can think outside of
their boxes, but this guy remains to be a nut-- on any
side. whatever happened to good 'ole middle ground?
isn't there a path between thinking the hadiths are
satanic, looking at them like they destroyed islam and
blaming them for all the horrible things muslims have
done, or complete authentic, claiming it is not
'tampered' with, etc? i guess people like extremism.

like na'eem mentioned, they will diss the hadiths...
but will cross-reference with the bible and/or other
historical texts. me thinks that is a bit odd. in my
opinion, it is a joke to cast the hadiths satanic and
then proclaim to believe in the authenticity of the
qur'an. both texts are from the same period.... by the
same people...  :-P


 

your brother,

afdhere

Afdhere Jama 
Editorial Director 
HURIYAH Publications 
S A N F R A N C I S C O 
[email protected] 
http://www.huriyahmag.org 
 
>From: [email protected] >Reply-To:
[email protected] >To:
[email protected] >Subject:
Re: [Progressivemuslimsnetwork] New Translation >Date:
Wed, 24 Dec 2003 09:22:24 EST > >As Salam Aleikum > >
> http://www.yuksel.org/e/books/rtq.htm > > >Yuksel
has a link '19.org' on his site that connects to
articles about the >Rashid Khalifa translation of the
Quran dealing with the miracle of 19 in the >Quran. In
one of his articles he says he is not a 19er but from
other articles >I got the impression that he believes
this interpretation. How does this >belief factor into
his new translation? > >Uzma 


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