Re: on original sin

salam, sister laura,

you say, "The quote from the Quran shows in my mind the exact opposite of what you are trying to show. Despite the betrayal of God that Adam and Eve show, the immediate consequence is being expelled from the Garden. Not women and men being damned to hardship for all eternity for what happened in said garden. God then lets them know they have other chances to make the right choices or not. In my mind this shows that God trusts men and women and in their ultimate ability to choose."

the immediate consequence is the immediate punishment, which i was telling sister eileen. you see, the world where they were 'casted' to, was a world full of sin... where they were jannah (the same word used for 'paradise' in the qur'an) ... was a place where they only had to worry about one tree :) so, first and foremost... that was a punishment.

and on top of that punishment, adam and eve were facing an eternal hell until god "turned to" them (see sura 2, verses 30s.)

then the next step was making sure they knew not all of their children would make to god's heaven... but only those that followed god's guidance in the world.

yes, surely god trusts humanity to choose... but god also knows it was they who would betray that choice because humanity is "unjust" and "ignorant." (see 37:72) and that is precisely why god said "most of humanity will not believe" (see 12:103) and that even amongst those few of who believe, "most of them will not believe without shirk" (see 12:106.)

and then you say, "And what is this "cleansing ourselves from sin, daily"? I don't agree with this statement. I don't see this supported in the Quran either. Its true that we are human beings and that we are not perfect like God. The way you say sin makes it seem a dirty thing. Sinning is simply making mistakes. When we make mistakes we repent. We don't "cleanse" ourselves. We are already cleansed because God made us. Our souls aren't defiled. "

we don't cleanse ourselves? there are millions of muslims out there everyday who make salat numerous times a day... (depending on what sect, etc) ... starting with a surrah that includes a begining of "all thanks is due to allah... " and "only you we seek for help" -- things to remind us... against shirk.

also, there is a constant struggle with a sheitan/devil... which whispers evil to us all day long.

jihad el nafs or the stuggle of the soul is not just against the soul (its desires, etc) but against the world-- including sheitan. our souls aren't defiled, definitely. but i don't think christianity believes that. christians believe non-believing souls are bad... but so do muslims :)

then you say, "When you say cleansing ourselves daily from sin all I can think of is a character in a book, I think its the scarlet letter, where the minister is whipping himself everyday for his sinful thoughts. If we have so-called sinful thoughts we forgive ourselves because we are being tempted by the world not because we are inherently bad. If we falter and act on those thoughts we have strayed...but again, after the example of the Garden, we can stop, repent and pray for forgiveness. We begin again with a clean slate and new-found knowledge."

okay i never read that... but i read a biography of a catholic guy who used to punish himself. :) come on, it is not like that hehe ... we just wash ourselves daily, stand in prayer, and say cute stuff :-) ok, j/k

but seriously, it is not up to us to start with a clean slate. god "forgives whomever he wills and punishes whomever he wills" (see 48:14.) we most certainly make the effort, but in the end, it is up to god.

as for fitrah-- http://www.thetruereligion.org/fitrah.htm that link has a really good article on the subject. fitrah is separate from the soul's intentions, actions, etc. all souls were created before adam... or at least god knew all those souls would be created, as god summons them all before time and space (see 7:172.)

that said, the natural fitrah of the human includes their weakness, which god created in them.(see 4:28) so, the soul being weak is part of our fitrah. if not, it spits in the face of justice... as sadly as it sounds... to sheitan :)

hey, thanks for the thoughts.

afdhere

Afdhere Jama
Editorial Director
HURIYAH Publications
S A N F R A N C I S C O
[email protected]
http://www.huriyahmag.com

>From: "Laura" >Reply-To: [email protected] >To: >Subject: Re: [Progressivemuslimsnetwork] on original sin >Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 13:03:45 -0500 > >Salaam Afdhere, > >I don't know how you get yourself into these arguments, but sometimes we need to agree to disagree, especially when your proofs are not proofs. > >"We said; 'go from this (garden), surely my guidance will come to you and then whoever follows my guidance neither shall fear nor grief. and as for those who disbelieve and reject my guidance, they are the inmates of the hell-fire; in it they shall abide.'"(qur'an, 2:38-39)" > >The quote from the Quran shows in my mind the exact opposite of what you are trying to show. Despite the betrayal of God that Adam and Eve show, the immediate co
nsequence is being expelled from the Garden. Not women and men being damned to hardship for all eternity for what happened in said garden. God then lets them know they have other chances to make the right choices or not. In my mind this shows that God trusts men and women and in their ultimate ability to choose. > >And what is this "cleansing ourselves from sin, daily"? I don't agree with this statement. I don't see this supported in the Quran either. Its true that we are human beings and that we are not perfect like God. The way you say sin makes it seem a dirty thing. Sinning is simply making mistakes. When we make mistakes we repent. We don't "cleanse" ourselves. We are already cleansed because God made us. Our souls aren't defiled. > >You also forget that the devil and the jinn are attempting to turn us away from God's way. You might believe in this figuratively and not
literally, but either way...it is an external struggle against the things of this world of which our body might be a part. Intrinsically we are not full of sin. > >When you say cleansing ourselves daily from sin all I can think of is a character in a book, I think its the scarlet letter, where the minister is whipping himself everyday for his sinful thoughts. If we have so-called sinful thoughts we forgive ourselves because we are being tempted by the world not because we are inherently bad. If we falter and act on those thoughts we have strayed...but again, after the example of the Garden, we can stop, repent and pray for forgiveness. We begin again with a clean slate and new-found knowledge. > >I agree that there is constant evil around us. But not in us. And finally, as Na'eem stated about fitrah. How do You reconcile and explain that term from traditionalist scholars w
ith jihad al nafs? > >Laura Hussain > > > > > >

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