sexuality, sadness (happiness), and sin

> >
> > Today's Topics:
> >
> >    1. Re: RE: ProgressiveMuslims digest, Vol
> >        1 #378 - 6 msgs ([email protected])
> >
> > --__--__--
> >
> > Message: 1
> > Date: Sat, 07 Feb 2004 16:35:21 -0500
> > From: [email protected]
> > To: [email protected]
> > Subject: Re: [Progressivemuslimsnetwork] RE:
> > ProgressiveMuslims digest, Vol
> >  1 #378 - 6 msgs
> > Reply-To: [email protected]
> >
> > y2,
> >
> > Since the ball's rolling on this thread, I'd like to add my 2
> > cents also.
> >
> > While you may not have an opinion, your post as well as the
> > time you must
> > have put into it certainly communicate to me that you have
> > strong feelings
> > on this issue . . . I think that we have those two things
> > (strong feelings
> > as well as careful effort and consideration in our posts) in common.
>
> I wouldn't call them strong.  But yeah, I've read the koran several time
> though, and I just don't see any justification for it.  But then I guess
> we all come to the table with bias.  That's why I only presented all the
> VALID arguments as I see them and not my view. Although I'm sure my
> arguments are affected by my view.
>

I think it's commendable for you to recognize a possible bias, I certainly 
have a bias in that I have a personal stake, seeing as my being Allah's 
good graces hinges on which way this issue works out temperally and 
ultimately.

> >
> > Correct me if I'm wrong but I seem to be reading your post as making
> > depression a metaphor for homosexuality. I beg to differ with that
> > parallel. I have to ask - given all of the scientific study
> > that has gone
> > into BOTH of these facets of the human condition in the last
> > 100 years as
> > well as the new critical light being shed on homosexuality
> > within Islam in
> > particular - where's the progress in the way we think about
> > these issues?
> >
> I would disagree.  It's the one of the best situations to use because it
> makes one recognize we are part choice/learning..., part bodily tendancy
> generally via chemicals.  People unwilling to accept this as a basis for
> discussion are simply not in the reality of science.

I take it that this means that you DID consciously use depression as a 
metaphor for homosexuality. Again, I don't think it's such a great 
comparison religiously because there's nothing in the qur'an about 
depression as a sin so it seems to serve logic that you might choose some 
sin with which to compare homosexuality (being as you seem to consider it 
one) to show the commonality of sins.

Now, if we're talking from a scientific perspective, as opposed to a 
religious one, I would argue that there seems to be a better parallel than 
depression. I wish I could think of one since this one just doesn't seem to 
fit so well in my head . . . or is it my heart or my stomach? I agree that 
a complex mix of factors (including choice and chemicals in/after the womb) 
influence our sexual orientations and our emotional dispositions.

However, I might caution you not to set the terms of discussion in such a 
way as to draw a line in the sand that separates "reality" from something 
else, just because there may be gaps in information that could be filled 
during a productive discourse yet this line in the sand may keep some 
people from participating in the first place or may cause them to withdraw. 
I'm not sure how well I'm making this point but I'm just trying to say that 
I try to assume that all participants are reasonable and coming from a 
genuine, sincere, and REALISTIC perspective when we have these kinds of 
discussions and I understand that sometimes we walk away without some 
measure of consensus (Though fortunately, in this discussion, we have 
already hit some notes of consensus and are continuing to do so).

>
> Would u prefer if I used happiness instead of depression.  Okay fine.
> There are people who will tend to be more happier due to their bodies
> ability to induce increased "happy" chemicals in the brain.  That's how
> the brain works.  You want to get some sleep, take some melatonin to
> trick the body into thinking its time to sleep.  I used depression
> because it too can be a physical problem with the body or something that
> is more acquired through your experience.  We even have anti-depression
> commercials out these days. Its also recognized as a problem whereas most
> people would not think of always being happy as a problem.
>

Again, I wish I could think of something better to compare homosexuality 
with in this discussion. This idea of a "physical problem" just doesn't 
seem to make sense to me when we talk about sexuality (though experience 
does play a role). I guess I can see where the comparison would come in 
when we talk about brain chemistry. Is that maybe where you're coming from? 
(Really having a hard time wrapping my brain around this comparison so 
clarification from any sources would be "much obliged".)

> My main point is that it could be a choice for some, a genetic tendancy
> for others.  I happen to think its both.  The cause of such does not
> affect the morality of it.  In either case.  Just as the tendancy of
> sexual urges.  I'm sure some people have hyper sexual drives.  That does
> make infidelity or adultery or rape acceptable just because of their
> desires.  If it is morally right, then we can think of it as a character
> trait.  If its morally wrong, then perhaps it should be treated like
> depression often either by drugs or by physciatry.
>
> In summary then ;)  What's natural is not always moral.
>

"What is natural is not always moral." Agreed! I hate that argument for the 
exact same reason.

"If its morally wrong, then perhaps it should be treated like depression 
often either by drugs or by physciatry." About treating depression, it 
seems like you're saying that depression is morally wrong by inference. 
THIS is why I don't think we should be drawing this parallel between homo- 
(or bi-) sexuality and depression (or uphoria if we go with happiness).

I guess I'd like to point out that I am not interested in making a moral 
case for homosexuality or depression/sadness or happiness. This almost 
seems like we're sliding into the social arena ("It's a choice therefore we 
need laws A, B, and C!" "It's not a  choice therefore we need laws X, Y., 
and Z!") and I'd like to stay away from that one just because it seems like 
we'd only be recycling arguments that we've heard before on more than one 
occasion.

>
> > I would assert that people in both camps would find fault in your
> > comparison simply because there seems to be a value judgment
> > in what you're
> > saying that slights them both.
>
> That's good.  It should slight them both.  A good argument usually will.
>

I don't understand this, maybe you can clarify it for me.

> It might be better if you're
> > talking about
> > them on the level of sin (which I do not agree is the case
> > for either of
> > these two states) to come from a place that is more
> > scripturally-based. In
> > effect, you might want to be more explicit and demonstrative
> > in saying that
> > it is Allah's judgment that people are under rather than your
> > own or that
> > of the prevailing Islamic social winds.
>
> No, I don't care to dribble in scriptually-based arguments.  I'm pretty
> sure u've read the koran and have made up ur interpretations.  We all
> generally know the arguments, and I'm not going to argue of this verb or
> that noun here or there. I don;t know arabic well enough to sit there and
> dabble if some word could better be translated somehow.

On arguing about homosexuality in Islam, interpretations, and grasp of the 
arabic language . . . All I can say is . . . AGREED!

> Lot=case against
> homosexuality if u come from that point of view.  The rest of the koran
> always speaks of a man and a woman which tends to the heterosexual
> lifestyle.

Recycled . . . exactly. You rightly cite these arguments as an example 
thereof.

> Male servants promised in heaven can be taken as a sign of
> homosexuality [52.24].

That's a novel one for me. Thanks for sharing, I'll have to turn it over in 
my head for a while.

> But hey, maybe they're just servants.  And things
> allowed in heaven are not neccessarily allowed on Earth.  Heaven is bliss.
>

Was that a joke, "Things allowed in heaven are not necessarily allowed one 
Earth. Heaven is bliss."? I think it's pretty funny actually and I'm sure 
my gay friends would also find it a naughty little laugh. You should tell 
it to yours if you have any, they might get a kick out of it  . . . who 
knows, it might be an interesting point of entry for some really productive 
dialogue and discussion.

> As the old joke goes.  If god promises 70 virgins in heaven (still never
> found that in the koran), who am to argue.  Its supposed to be heaven! ;)
>

That's a new punchline for me but again, you hit my funny bone.  :)

> The Hadiths..well.  There we can go into scripture, but from what I've
> read, its pretty much stacked against homosexuality.  But then nothing in
> the hadiths can be thought of as 100% authentic.
>

I have to do some serious study of the hadith. Sometimes I'm inclined to 
throw the baby out with the bath water.

> Theres also the wya of life of the arabs and ottoman empires, but how they
> lived has very little moral basis on modern life.  All it speaks of is how
> they interpretated the same thing we're trying to interpret today Or how
> religious they actually were.
>
>
> No, that is not what I'm saying.  There are in my view and I'm sure in
> most people's 2 kinds of sins.  Sins punishable or Earth, and sins
> punishable only by God.  I don't think homosexualiy should be punished on
> Earth as long as its 2 consenting adults.

Interesting distinction. I think though that in my mind at least, I'd make 
the distinction between sins and crimes (and/or injuries/offenses in some 
cases) rather than earthly sins (those punished on earth) and heavenly sins 
(those punished by God). The problem I think is that ALL sins are punished 
by God and when we prosecute people for crimes or retaliate for 
injuries/offenses, we're not punishing sin (if that's what you mean when 
you say "punishable on earth") . . . at least not directly and consciously.

I do think though that there is a difference between what we punish and 
what God punishes just because God knows ALL that we do and because because 
our laws are imperfect so they sometimes allow the bad and other times they 
punish the good.

> However, whether a kid is
> brought up in a Pakistani style madrassa or a western liberal school,
> they're being brainwashed either way. In this sense what values we
> extend in society is going to effect them.

I wouldn't go so far as to say "brain-washing" (That's been a buzzword for 
me on this list in the past on the issue of raising children) but I do 
agree that some profound form of indoctrination/impressioning happens to 
youth in institutions of education.

>  That is where the societies
> moral judgement of such things which I would deem sins against God would
> fit in.
>

I guess it depends on how far away from the genesis of a society you are 
and what kind you live in. For example, here in the states, a looooong time 
ago, every law was somehow linked to the idea of rights coming from God and 
not offending His edicts. Now, rights come from the constitution and laws 
are justified more on the grounds of what function they serve socially 
(encouraging actions that serve the group, sanctioning those that don't). 
In other parts of the world they may be less secular, at least outwardly. 
Maybe it has more to do with time than any other factor, maybe not (I'm 
digressing now).

> >
> > I don't want to play Qur'an Jeopardy on the issue so I won't
> > ask you to
> > site verses or site any myself. I will, however, celebrate
> > your right to
> > challenge me in understanding my faith as I would hope is true in the
> > converse case. I will also bear witness to this thought you shared.
> >
>
> I don't play Koranic Jeopardy with people.  The koran is a pretty clear
> and reasonable book.  You can stretch some things which is fine and those
> things that can be reinterpreted will be done so, and there is very
> little anyone can say to challenge a reinterpretaion of something.
> Especially some people who don't even think the koran is authentic.
>
> I've no desire to challenge ur faith.

I think it's a byproduct of these kinds of discussions and it's not bad 
necessarily.

> I just like tossing in my mind
> state of the situation.
> I generally try not to state my opinions, unless
> someone points them out.  I just present the arguments as I see them.
> Generally from both ends when that's possible.  Other times, things seem
> pretty set it stone.  For example I think chapter 2 of the koran is
> explicity clear and fair on Islamic use of force.  Room for discussion on
> details..for sure. But I don't think there's room for a grand
> reinterpretation...it would just be stretching it too much.
>
> > (About sex ads on the Al Fatiha group's listserv - I'm not
> > sure if this was
> > brought up before y2's post or if that post was when the
> > issue arose but in
> > my experience, they are highly atypical and get deleted from my inbox
> > immediately like all related solicitations  . . . wherever
> > they may come
> > from.)
>
> Yeah, this was mentioned by a previous poster.  I forget his name, but its
> there.  The guy from Norway I believe.
>

I had trouble finding it so thanks for the lead.

Gonna sign off hear but thanks y2 for the careful time, the ideas, and the 
laughs/jokes!   :)

> > I just hope that the quest to please Allah justly and
> > compassion while also
> > experiencing peace by being in His* good graces (which
> > brought me not only
> > back to my faith but also to this group) is what attracts all who
> > participate in the faith in the first place and is what
> > attracts us to this
> > group in particular. Given your recent post, y2, I am sure
> > that reasonable
> > people can disagree and I will also grant my agreement with
> > with the loose
> > definition/example you offered of 'open-minded[ness]'
> > constituting the idea
> > that homosexuality may be (just as it may not be) a sin is
> > the eyes of
> > Allah.
> >
>
> Hey, we can disagree and agree to our minds content.
>
> > I pray that He* will guide us all rightly and forgive us when we err
> > whether knowingly, in desperation, or in ignorance. And I
> > hope that there
> > is room in Islam and in groups like the PMN for people who think and
> > believe like you do . . .and for those who do not.
> >
> > Apologies in advance for any offenses/injury or ignorance on
> > my end. Allah
> > surely loves clarity so any thoughts that might contribute
> > thereof are
> > encouraged.
> >
> > PS: * = Anyone know why Yusuf Ali and others seem to be sometimes
> > translating Allah in the first-person pronoun as "We" as in
> > plural rather
> > than singular? What does that have to do with the
> > third-person translating
> > as the singular masculine "He"?
> >
> > -Moo  :)
> >
> >
> >
> > --On Saturday, February 07, 2004 1:28 PM -0500 y2
> > <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > > No doubt I'm sure some people are born with a tendancy to
> > be attracted to
> > > the same sex.  Others simply make the choice.  People are born with
> > > tendacies all the time. That doesn't neccessarily mean they
> > should simply
> > > embrace it.  I'm sure there are people who have a tendancy
> > to be genuinly
> > > depressed simply due to a genetic disorder (they cannot
> > product the happy
> > > chemicals in the brain).  Others are depressed for reasons of their
> > > own/environment's making.  In either case, one should seek
> > treatment for
> > > that.  The notion that just because we are born with it or
> > that it is
> > > found in nature is reason enough to accept it is not
> > sufficient to allow
> > > it.  Male lions for example kill the offspring of other
> > males when they
> > > take over a pride.  This of course would be a crime of immeasurable
> > > proportion in humanity.  But it is perfectly natural.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --__--__--
> >
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> >
> > End of ProgressiveMuslims Digest
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