Re: RE: ProgressiveMuslims digest, Vol 1 #390 - 8 msgs
itrath <[email protected]> Fri, 13 Feb 2004 13:49:19 -0800
| Newsgroups | gmane.culture.religion.muslim.progressive |
|---|---|
| Message-ID | <BC52865E.280D6%[email protected]> |
salaam yameen, laways nice to see more canadians on the list. :-) i am from vancouver. the economic conditions of palestinians living in the '48 areas must be placed in the context of the systemic apartheid that organizes the state. and in the case of iraq, my answer would clearly be "no, they are not better off". masalaama, itrath on 2/13/04 12:57 PM, y2 at [email protected] wrote: > Slaams Itrath, > > Obviously I don't think Gazans or those Palestinians in the West bank are > living a better life, but those arabs under Israeli rule are. But like I > said, that is apart from morality. Otherwise, we should just accept our > rulers for the sake of living a better life. As Bush says, are the Iraqis > not better off? The case of being 'better off materially' is jsut a case > often made by the pro-Israel side. > > I'm pretty open to other interpretations in most cases, but in the case of > resistance that is often required by people facing colonial/imperial powers, > I support them 100%. They have every right to resist and the Islam not only > accepts resistance, but demands it in such cases. Otherwise, they'd just be > wiped out...either physically or culturally. > > No doubt many have problems with their tactics/strategies...but those will > always exist. > > Yameen > > --__-- >> >> Message: 6 >> Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 07:42:29 -0800 >> Subject: Re: [Progressivemuslimsnetwork] Israel >> From: itrath <[email protected]> >> To: <[email protected]> >> Reply-To: [email protected] >> >> >> salaam, >> >> aah, you must be new to the list. this topic has actually >> come up many many >> times before. :-) >> >> just a couple points: >> >> in the analaogy, i think the indigenous nations of north >> america are more >> acurately related to the palestininans rather than the >> zionists. as they >> both have had an imperialist colonial state imposed upon them. >> >> also how do you mean that "What's interesting is that in both >> South Africa >> and Israel, the people as a whole are far better off. " do >> you mean to say >> that the palestinians living in, for example, gaza refugee >> camps are better >> off? >> >> masalaama, >> >> itrath >> >> >> on 2/13/04 3:26 AM, y2 at [email protected] wrote: >> >>> Salaams all, >>> >>> Well this topic was bound to come up some time. I'd just >> like to address >>> a few points. The first is why isn't so much attention >> paid to Kashmir or >>> Kudristan...as there is to Palestine. Well for one, its >> news. Resistance >>> or terror is news and the killing of a Jew means so much >> more to people in >>> the main powers of the world such as the United States than >> some bomb blast >>> in Pakistan or some Kurds being killed. Its on the map, >> its a big issue. >>> Jews were/are of the largest minority populations in the >> United states, and >>> they had a cause. It's expected that issues that affect >> them mean more than >>> Rawandans or what not. >>> >>> It is also essential to recognize the uniqueness of >> Israel's situation. >>> Generally speaking, the rest of the conflicts mentioned are >> if you will >>> run-o-the mill conflicts. Kashmir is a disputed land between >>> India/Pakistan...just another land problem. The kurds have >> always been >>> there...they're just treated very very poorly like the Aech >> in Indonesia or >>> what have you. I'm not trying to downplay these issues, >> but they're pretty >>> standard fare around the world and in history. The main >> thing these all >>> have in common is: They're against a neighbour they've always known. >>> >>> The situation in Israel is virtually unparalleled. If, as >> you say they are >>> maligned unfairly, they are surely treated unfairly in >> everyway...both good >>> and bad. No other group of people would have been able to >> create a state on >>> land they haven't been the primary resistance on in 1000 >> years. The Native >>> Indians aren't taking back Toronto anytime, I can tell you >> that. A group of >>> primarily European Jews decide to form the state of Israel >> long before WW2. >>> Their campaign begins and early settlers arrive. Then WW2 >> hits, and as a >>> by-product of British colonialism, they formally declare >> the state of >>> Israel. More and more foreign Jews immigrate there. A >> sustained effort >>> to create a state based on being Jewish on land occupied >> primarily by >>> another people who do not share the same culture, >> language...And these >>> people are supposed to accept their new rulers...yeah. >> Sounds more like the >>> British and Dutch going to South Africa and declaring >> themselves the rulers. >>> While at the same time trying to create a white majority in >> the country. >>> And this sustained effort to maintain Jewish majority in >> the land continues >>> to day with the settlements and the belief that all Jews >> should end up in >>> Israel right now. This combined with being allied with the >> worlds most >>> powerful nation, does create a rather unique situation. >>> >>> What's interesting is that in both South Africa and Israel, >> the people as a >>> whole are far better off. South Africa is one of Africa's >> economic engines. >>> And arab Israelis are decently well off financially. Of >> course, all this >>> has nothing to do with the morality of apartheid or Israel. >>> >>> We're all too familiar with the plight of Jews in WW2 and >> what not. As I'm >>> sure we're all aware of other kinds of oppression...yet, these are >>> foreigners doing the oppression, not the neighbour/family. >> I'm sure we also >>> know of the poor treatment of Palestinians by the other >> Arab countries, both >>> before and after Israel. >>> >>> As to the morality of say "terrorism/resistance" versus the constant >>> persecution of the occupation. Both are grave, but the >> Koran does offer an >>> interesting perspective in chapter 2 (this chapter deals >> extensively with >>> the correct use of force). >>> >>> [2.190] And fight in the way of Allah with those who fight >> with you, and do >>> not exceed the limits, surely Allah does not love those who >> exceed the >>> limits. >>> [2.191] And kill them wherever you find them, and drive >> them out from whence >>> they drove you out, and persecution is severer than >> slaughter, and do not >>> fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with >> you in it, but if >>> they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the >>> unbelievers. >>> [2.192] But if they desist, then surely Allah is Forgiving, >> Merciful. >>> >>> It's such a simple and direct passage. This chapter also >> provides great >>> mini quotes for those who wish to portray Islam as violent >> by not quoting >>> entire section to provide perspective. IT simply says that >> you can only >>> fight those who fight against you. And you should stop >> fighting when they >>> stop fighting you. The morality of the line comes in in >> 2.191 where it says >>> "persecution is severer than slaughter" This line is >> repeated elsewhere in >>> the surah. >>> >>> Yameen >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> ProgressiveMuslims mailing list >>> [email protected] >>> >> http://willo.nitric.co.za/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/progressivemuslims >>> >> >> >> >> --__--__-- >> >> Message: 7 >> From: "Afdhere Jama" <[email protected]> >> To: [email protected] >> Subject: RE: [Progressivemuslimsnetwork] Israel >> Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 08:53:37 -0800 >> Reply-To: [email protected] >> >> <html><div style='background-color:'><P><BR>salam,</P> >> <P>it really makes me sad when i see -- muslims, of all >> people -- talking about how palestinians suffer more than the >> kurds. talking about the kurds being "just treated very very >> poorly." apparently, murdering 100, 000s of innocents is >> "treating poorly." also, yameen seems to not know that kurds >> have lost -- get this -- more than FIVE times the >> palestinians have lost. and not since 1948 (as the case in >> palestine) but just start from since, say, saddam and >> the likes took power.</P> >> <P>as for media, we are not talking about 'jewish-owned' >> medias which seems to only feel the pain of the jews. that is >> not at all what we are talking about here. it is the >> muslim-owned. </P> >> <P>why are we concentrating on other people? lets talk about >> our own people. you can't talk about other people's dirty >> laundry... when you have a whole house of stashed dirty stuff. </P> >> <P>oh, and please lets not forget. this is just not kurdistan >> or acheh, it is a long, long list of muslims who are >> oppressed by muslims and non-muslims... who lose so much more >> than palestinians... yet are ignored by the general muslim >> public. what gives? </P> >> <P>lets not worry about israel. israel gets enough criticism >> from its own people, from the entire world. as muslims... and >> as progressive muslims, lets first worry about muslims who >> are continuously oppressing other muslim. i don't believe in >> that 'family business' crap... where as long as it is 'within >> the family', it is okay.<BR></P> >> <P>on a different subject note, i usually find myself hard in >> criticising palestinians who use -- as sad as it sounds -- >> the only means available; sucide bombing. if they had >> rockets, tanks, misles, etc, i'm sure they would not have >> resorted to suicide bombing... and the area would just be >> "may the strong man win." and hadn't the palestinians >> being so resisting to the last minute of life, they would >> have faced a holocaust of their own... way long time ago. >> that said, i do have a problem with targeting children, which >> both the palestinians and israelis have done time and again.</P> >> <P>afdhere</P> >> <P><BR><BR><BR> </P> >> <DIV><STRONG>Afdhere Jama </STRONG><BR>Editorial Director >> <BR><EM>HURIYAH Publications </EM><BR>S A N F R A N C I S C O >> <BR><A >> href="mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</A>< >> BR><A >> href="http://www.huriyahmag.com/">http://www.huriyahmag.com</A></DIV> >> <DIV> </DIV>>From: "y2" >> <[email protected]>>Reply-To: >> [email protected] >To: >> <[email protected]>>Subject: >> [Progressivemuslimsnetwork] Israel >Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 >> 06:26:04 -0500 > >Salaams all, > >Well this topic >> was bound to come up some time. I'd just like to address >> >a few points. The first is why isn't so much attention >> paid to Kashmir or >Kudristan...as there is to Palestine. >> Well for one, its news. Resistance >or terror is news and >> the killing of a Jew means so much more to people in >the >> main powers of the world such as the United States than some >> bomb blast >in Pakistan or some Kurds being killed. Its on >> the map, its a big issue. >Jews were/are of the largest >> minority populations in the United states, and >they had a >> cause. It's expected that issues that affect them mean more >> than >Rawandans or what not. > >It is also essential >> to recognize the uniqueness of Israel's situation. >> >Generally speaking, the rest of the conflicts mentioned >> are if you will >run-o-the mill conflicts. Kashmir is a >> disputed land between >India/Pakistan...just another land >> problem. The kurds have always been >there...they're just >> treated very very poorly like the Aech in Indonesia or >> >what have you. I'm not trying to downplay these issues, >> but they're pretty >standard fare around the world and in >> history. The main thing these all >have in common is: >> They're against a neighbour they've always known. > >> >The situation in Israel is virtually unparalleled. If, as >> you say they are >maligned unfairly, they are surely >> treated unfairly in everyway...both good >and bad. No >> other group of people would have been able to create a state >> on >land they haven't been the primary resistance on in >> 1000 years. The Native >Indians aren't taking back Toronto >> anytime, I can tell you that. A group of >primarily >> European Jews decide to form the state of Israel long before >> WW2. >Their! >> campaig >> n begins and early settlers arrive. Then WW2 hits, and as a >> >by-product of British colonialism, they formally declare >> the state of >Israel. More and more foreign Jews immigrate >> there. A sustained effort >to create a state based on >> being Jewish on land occupied primarily by >another people >> who do not share the same culture, language...And these >> >people are supposed to accept their new rulers...yeah. >> Sounds more like the >British and Dutch going to South >> Africa and declaring themselves the rulers. >While at the >> same time trying to create a white majority in the country. >> >And this sustained effort to maintain Jewish majority in >> the land continues >to day with the settlements and the >> belief that all Jews should end up in >Israel right now. >> This combined with being allied with the worlds most >> >powerful nation, does create a rather unique situation. >> > >What's interesting is that in both South Africa and >> Israel, the people as a >whole are far better off. South >> Africa is one of Africa's economic engines. >And arab >> Israelis are decently well off financially. Of course, all >> this >has nothing to do with the morality of apartheid or >> Israel. > >We're all too familiar with the plight of >> Jews in WW2 and what not. As I'm >sure we're all aware of >> other kinds of oppression...yet, these are >foreigners >> doing the oppression, not the neighbour/family. I'm sure we >> also >know of the poor treatment of Palestinians by the >> other Arab countries, both >before and after Israel. > >> >As to the morality of say "terrorism/resistance" versus >> the constant >persecution of the occupation. Both are >> grave, but the Koran does offer an >interesting >> perspective in chapter 2 (this chapter deals extensively with >> >the correct use of force). > >[2.190] And fight in >> the way of Allah with those who fight with you, and do >> >not exceed the limits, surely Allah does not love those >> who exceed the >limits. >[2.191] And kill them wherever >> you find them, and drive t! >> hem out >> from whence >they drove you out, and persecution is >> severer than slaughter, and do not >fight with them at the >> Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if >> >they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense >> of the >unbelievers. >[2.192] But if they desist, then >> surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. > >It's such a >> simple and direct passage. This chapter also provides great >> >mini quotes for those who wish to portray Islam as >> violent by not quoting >entire section to provide >> perspective. IT simply says that you can only >fight those >> who fight against you. And you should stop fighting when they >> >stop fighting you. The morality of the line comes in in >> 2.191 where it says >"persecution is severer than >> slaughter" This line is repeated elsewhere in >the surah. >> > >Yameen > > >> >_______________________________________________ >> >ProgressiveMuslims mailing list >> >[email protected] >> >http://willo.nitric.co.za/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/progres >> sivemuslims </div><br clear=all><hr> <a >> href="http://g.msn.com/8HMAENUS/2749??PS=">Keep up with >> high-tech trends here at "Hook'd on Technology."</a> </html> >> >> >> --__--__-- >> >> Message: 8 >> Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 14:58:38 -0500 >> From: [email protected] >> Subject: Re: RE: [Progressivemuslimsnetwork] Israel >> To: [email protected] >> Reply-To: [email protected] >> >> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. >> >> --Boundary_(ID_pAviIyM5DimMQdlvsUWfag) >> Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >> Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT >> Content-disposition: inline >> >> Salaams Afdhere, >> >> I believe you make a good point about keeping focus on the >> suffering of non-palestinian groups. But may you be >> committing the same transgression to which you so rightly >> point in the disproportionate misallocation of our attention >> when you affirm things like "lets not worry about israel. >> israel gets enough criticism from its own people"? >> >> Theoretically, we must never prioritize the suffering of one >> over another. murder is murder. rape is rape. But when we >> must come to the pragmatic decisions of allocating scarce >> resources (monetary as well as emotional), can we agree that >> awareness of the suffering of neglected Others is an >> intrinsic good, to which we must do all we can, and then some. >> >> But the means we use to acheive these ends is instructive: we >> need not redeem the suffering of one, but diminishing the >> suffering of another. >> >> And of course, God knows best, of the best path in these >> difficult matters. >> >> -Omar SUltan Haque >> >> --Boundary_(ID_pAviIyM5DimMQdlvsUWfag) >> Content-type: message/rfc822 >> >> Return-path: <[email protected]> >> Received: from hermes.hds.harvard.edu (hermes.hds.harvard.edu >> [128.103.197.29]) >> by mail.hds.harvard.edu >> (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.09 (built Jan 7 2003)) >> with SMTP id <[email protected]> for >> ohaque@ims-ms-daemon; Fri, 13 Feb 2004 11:58:25 -0500 >> (Eastern Standard Time) >> Received: From willo.nitric.co.za ([168.210.54.35]) by >> hermes.hds.harvard.edu >> (WebShield SMTP v4.5 MR1a P0803.345); id 1076691463906; Fri, >> 13 Feb 2004 11:57:43 -0500 >> Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] >> helo=willo.nitric.co.za ident=list) >> by willo.nitric.co.za with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id >> 1Argcl-0006mk-D2; Fri, >> 13 Feb 2004 18:57:07 +0200 >> Received: from bay7-f58.bay7.hotmail.com ([64.4.11.58] >> helo=hotmail.com) >> by willo.nitric.co.za with esmtp (Exim 4.30) >> id 1ArgZx-0006iJ-LL for >> [email protected]; Fri, >> 13 Feb 2004 18:54:14 +0200 >> Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with >> Microsoft SMTPSVC; Fri, >> 13 Feb 2004 08:53:37 -0800 >> Received: from 68.122.118.75 by by7fd.bay7.hotmail.msn.com >> with HTTP; Fri, >> 13 Feb 2004 16:53:37 +0000 (GMT) >> Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 08:53:37 -0800 >> From: Afdhere Jama <[email protected]> >> Subject: RE: [Progressivemuslimsnetwork] Israel >> X-Originating-IP: [68.122.118.75] >> Sender: [email protected] >> X-Sender: [email protected] >> To: [email protected] >> Bcc: >> Errors-to: [email protected] >> Reply-to: [email protected] >> Message-id: <[email protected]> >> MIME-version: 1.0 >> Content-type: text/html >> Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT >> Precedence: bulk >> X-BeenThere: [email protected] >> iPlanet-SMTP-Warning: Lines longer than SMTP allows found and >> truncated. >> X-Originating-Email: [[email protected]] >> X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 >> List-Post: <mailto:[email protected]> >> List-Subscribe: >> >> <http://willo.nitric.co.za/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/progressiv >> emuslims>, >> >> <mailto:[email protected]?subj >> ect=subscribe> >> List-Unsubscribe: >> >> <http://willo.nitric.co.za/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/progressiv >> emuslims>, >> >> <mailto:[email protected]?subj > ect=unsubscribe> >> List-Archive: >> <http://willo.nitric.co.za/pipermail/progressivemuslims/> >> List-Help: >> >> <mailto:[email protected]?subj >> ect=help> >> List-Id: Muslim community debate and discussion >> <progressivemuslims.progressivemuslims.com> >> Original-recipient: rfc822;[email protected] >> X-OriginalArrivalTime: 13 Feb 2004 16:53:37.0969 (UTC) >> FILETIME=[ED0ADA10:01C3F251] >> >> <html><div style='background-color:'><P><BR>salam,</P> >> <P>it really makes me sad when i see -- muslims, of all >> people -- talking about how palestinians suffer more than the >> kurds. talking about the kurds being "just treated very very >> poorly." apparently, murdering 100, 000s of innocents is >> "treating poorly." also, yameen seems to not know that kurds >> have lost -- get this -- more than FIVE times the >> palestinians have lost. and not since 1948 (as the case in >> palestine) but just start from since, say, saddam and >> the likes took power.</P> >> <P>as for media, we are not talking about 'jewish-owned' >> medias which seems to only feel the pain of the jews. that is >> not at all what we are talking about here. it is the >> muslim-owned. </P> >> <P>why are we concentrating on other people? lets talk about >> our own people. you can't talk about other people's dirty >> laundry... when you have a whole house of stashed dirty stuff. </P> >> <P>oh, and please lets not forget. this is just not kurdistan >> or acheh, it is a long, long list of muslims who are >> oppressed by muslims and non-muslims... who lose so much more >> than palestinians... yet are ignored by the general muslim >> public. what gives? </P> >> <P>lets not worry about israel. israel gets enough criticism >> from its own people, from the entire world. as muslims... and >> as progressive muslims, lets first worry about muslims who >> are continuously oppressing other muslim. i don't believe in >> that 'family business' crap... where as long as it is 'within >> the family', it is okay.<BR></P> >> <P>on a different subject note, i usually find myself hard in >> criticising palestinians who use -- as sad as it sounds -- >> the only means available; sucide bombing. if they had >> rockets, tanks, misles, etc, i'm sure they would not have >> resorted to suicide bombing... and the area would just be >> "may the strong man win." and hadn't the palestinians >> being so resisting to the last minute of life, they would >> have faced a holocaust of their own... way long time ago. >> that said, i do have a problem with targeting children, which >> both the palestinians and israelis have done time and again.</P> >> <P>afdhere</P> >> <P><BR><BR><BR> </P> >> <DIV><STRONG>Afdhere Jama </STRONG><BR>Editorial Director >> <BR><EM>HURIYAH Publications </EM><BR>S A N F R A N C I S C O >> <BR><A >> href="mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</A>< >> BR><A >> href="http://www.huriyahmag.com/">http://www.huriyahmag.com</A></DIV> >> <DIV> </DIV>>From: "y2" >> <[email protected]>>Reply-To: >> [email protected] >To: >> <[email protected]>>Subject: >> [Progressivemuslimsnetwork] Israel >Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 >> 06:26:04 -0500 > >Salaams all, > >Well this topic >> was bound to come up some time. I'd just like to address >> >a few points. The first is why isn't so much attention >> paid to Kashmir or >Kudristan...as there is to Palestine. >> Well for one, its news. Resistance >or terror is news and >> the killing of a Jew means so much more to people in >the >> main powers of the world such as the United States than some >> bomb blast >in Pakistan or some Kurds being killed. Its on >> the map, its a big issue. >Jews were/are of the largest >> minority populations in the United states, and >they had a >> cause. It's expected that issues that affect them mean more >> than >Rawandans or what not. > >It is also essential >> to recognize the uniquenes >> >> _______________________________________________ >> ProgressiveMuslims mailing list >> [email protected] >> http://willo.nitric.co.za/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/progressivemuslims >> >> --Boundary_(ID_pAviIyM5DimMQdlvsUWfag)-- >> >> >> >> --__--__-- >> >> _______________________________________________ >> ProgressiveMuslims mailing list >> [email protected] >> http://willo.nitric.co.za/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/progressivemuslims >> >> >> End of ProgressiveMuslims Digest > > > _______________________________________________ > ProgressiveMuslims mailing list > [email protected] > http://willo.nitric.co.za/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/progressivemuslims >