CryoNet #32263 - #32266

CryoNet - Tue 29 Dec 2009

    #32263: Re: Rebranding cryonics [Mark Plus]
    #32264: "Premortem Cryonics" spoof [Mark Plus]
    #32265: temp without LN2 [Ettinger]
    #32266: Re: Rebranding cryonics Message #32261 [swb1948]

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Message #32263
From: Mark Plus <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Rebranding cryonics
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2009 07:24:06 -0800

In Cryonet #32262, David Stodolsky writes:

>Transhumanism is already rebranding (actually repackaging) cryonics by including it a sequence of developments. Some of these are available already. The WTA also organizes local groups, etc. so there are ongoing activities. The results for cryonics are positive.

Cryonics has always associated with transhumanist thinking. Robert Ettinger and F.M. Esfandiary made that explicit in their respective futurological writings published back in the 1960's and 1970's; Ettinger even uses the word "transhuman" several times in his 1972 book "Man Into Superman," available online:

http://www.cryonics.org/book2.html

A number of cryonicists, myself included, have begun to question whether this association has resulted in "positive" results for cryonics, given that enough time has passed to falsify early transhumanist predictions with dates about medical & technological breakthroughs, including ones in cryonics. And as you point out, some schools of transhumanist thinking have led to passivity or terror management, like Ray Kurzweil's consumption of "life extension" quackery. Kurzweil might have arrangements for his cryonic suspension (a recent "Popular Science" article states that he does); but for an inventor and engineer obsessed with his personal survival, he seems incurious and unmotivated about trying to improve cryonics as a technological product, probably because he believes that the bowls of pi
 lls he swallows every day have put him on the path to "living well forever." Even if he knows he lacks the expertise to help cryonics, he has the money, status and connections to attract people who do.

I've also run across transhumanists who dismiss cryonics, even if is succeeds, because they believe that AI's will make humans "obsolete" and human life not worth preserving in a few decades. This sort of transhumanism sets itself up as explicitly hostile to cryonicists' goals.

So, Mr. Stodolsky, excuse my skepticism of your claim that transhumanism helps cryonics.

Mark Plus





 		 	   		  
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Message #32264
From: Mark Plus <[email protected]>
Subject: "Premortem Cryonics" spoof
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2009 07:28:24 -0800

http://lychee.dailyuw.com/monthly/?p=109

One of my contacts on Facebook also suggested a new name for cryonics: "iFreeze."

Mark Plus


 		 	   		  
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Message #32265
From: [email protected]
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2009 11:13:01 EST
Subject: temp without LN2

Yvan mentioned the potential usefulness of transporting
at liquid nitrogen temperature without using liquid nitrogen.
I and others have mentioned this in the past, and in 
principle it isn't difficult. You just supercool dry ice
(for example) to liquid nitrogen temperature and insulate
well. The experiments to determine parameters have not
yet been done as far as I know.
 
Robert Ettinger


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Message #32266
References: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Rebranding cryonics Message #32261
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2009 14:27:39 -0500
From: [email protected]

----------MB_8CC560AF41E3C68_5F54_977E7_webmail-d044.sysops.aol.com


Sorry, Jeff.  I've been doing cryonics for more than 30 years and the proof that cryonics works is NOT a "done deal."  Far from it.  Yes, we can prove that, under good conditions, individual tissues can be preserved and revived.  Yes, it seems probable that nanoscale repair will be feasible.  But that is "cryobiology."

"Cryonics" requires that we preserve and revive the individual person, with all (or most) of the memories and personality intact.  This requires something more than just a clone.  I have complete confidence that we will be able to produce a genetic duplicate.  We are a long way from proving that cryopreveration technology -- especially as practiced today -- is preserving the individual's memory and personality.  It is still possible that the technology we have is destroying those synaptic connections and other mechanisms yet unknown, instead of preserving them.

Overconfidence does not help us; it just delays or prevents people from pursuing the research that is still necessary 

Steve Bridge
former President of Alcor




Message #32261
Date: Sun, 27 Dec 2009 11:40:59 -0700
Subject: Re: Rebranding cryonics
From: Jeff Davis <[email protected]>

On Sun, Dec 27, 2009 at 3:00 AM,  Finance Department
<[email protected]> wrote:

> Message #32258
> Date: Sun, 27 Dec 2009 01:33:34 -0500
> Subject: Re: Rebranding cryonics
> From: Finance Department <[email protected]>

> The answer to how to rebrand cryonics seems to be as
> simple as demonstrating
> that it works, like an iPhone does, or a Kindle....

> Cryonics, unfortunately, has yet to be shown to work at all.

Like many folks who have a degree of familiarity with cryonics,
extending even to those well versed in the details,  Finance
Department doesn't "get it."  Cryonics DOES work.  And it can be SHOWN
to work, though the circumstances surrounding the cryonics experiment
restrict this "verification" to a logical rather than material
demonstration.  That the vast majority cannot access this visionary
truth does not change the fact that it is so.

For those who see me as a "true believer" let me state bluntly for the
record, I don't do "true believer", I do SCIENCE.

I don't intend to be coy here, (or impolite, or smug, or in any other
way disrespectful toward FD).  Clearly, FD means a material
demonstration, where an appropriate test subject is frozen, stored for
some period, and then restored to life.  This is what he means when he
says, "...shown to work."  Certainly, that would convert the vast
majority of doubters.  But neither their doubt -- nor my certainty --
alters the external reality.

Which is:

(1) Freezing at LN2 temperatures maintains the the stored item in
perfect condition effectively WITHOUT TIME LIMIT.

(2) Biology demonstrates the feasibility of precise manipulation of
biological structures at the molecular level.

(3) Science/materialism has repeatedly shown that "stuff" configured
properly will function properly.  This holds for both macroscopic and
microscopic configurations.  Toasters and ribosomes both perform
properly when configured properly.

(4) The "trajectory" of technology is "one way": toward increased
human ability to manipulate material at the molecular level.

After that, it's just a numbers game.  How long till we have computers
of sufficient power to coordinate the task of repairing perhaps
trillions of instances of cellular damage?  How long until a mature
technology capable of precise repair of biological structures at the
molecular level?  How much time will it take?  Now look back at item
number one.  THE TIME AVAILABLE IS EFFECTIVELY UNLIMITED.

Do you get it now?  It's a done deal.   Cryonics already works.

Will this persuade anyone not already persuaded?  Not likely.  It's
too great a leap.  The old prejudices are too ingrained.  Except for a
few futurist geeks the new paradigm -- genetic enhancements,
cybernetic augmentation, indefinite lifespan, artificial/cybernetic
intelligences, nanotech, uploading, and the Singularity -- will be for
post-humanity, the children of tomorrow.  The children of yesterday
will adhere to old paradigm thinking,...all the way to the grave.  And
the children of today, experiencing the transition from old paradigm
to new,...

"O brave new world, that hath such people in it."

Best, Jeff Davis





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