CryoNet #32515 - #32517

CryoNet - Mon 29 Mar 2010

    #32515: Down with uploading! [Daniel Crevier]
    #32516: No Subject [david pizer]
    #32517: Re: (no subject)[promoting cryonics] [Mike Perry]

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Message #32515
From: Daniel Crevier <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
Subject: Down with uploading!
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2010 12:33:31 -0400

As Robert points out, the uploading issue won't be resolved here. The reason 
could be that it is at bottom a subjective problem, with a different answer 
for each. The question "Is the simulation of a person the same as the 
person?" may not have a definitive answer because the concepts of "same" and 
"person" are very slippery. "Same" for example usually has more than one 
level of meaning, and your answer to a question about sameness depends on 
what level is important to you. This level may in turn depend on context, 
and your own experience. The answer could be "somewhat" rather than yes or 
no.

Consider a book. If we have both read Jules Verne's "Twenty thousand leagues 
under the sea", we will agree that we have read the "same" book. However, if 
your copy is a valuable, genuine 19th century edition in pristine condition, 
and mine is a cheap paperback, you will rightly insist that we do not own 
the "same" book. So, depending on context, "same" refers to different 
aspects of a book. In the context of owning, it refers to the "pile of dead 
tree material" aspect. In the context of reading, it refers to the contents 
of said pile, defined perhaps as a string of words or characters.

But what if I read the original "Vingt mille lieues sous les mers", and you 
read an English translation? Have we still read the same book? Here it gets 
a little iffy, because no translation is ever perfect. Still, I believe most 
people would agree that by and large, we have read the same book (note the 
qualifiers here: "same" is not a binary proposition. Things can be more or 
less the same). For this sameness to make sense, though, we have to abandon 
our definition of a book as a string of characters for something much more 
abstract. We might say that a book if a sequence of sentences that have some 
"meaning", whatever that is.

What if your version is an e-book and mine is on paper? That's interesting 
because your version can now be said to be a *simulation* of mine. It is a 
string of bits in an electronic medium that will cause the appearance on a 
screen of a replica of any given page in my book. Yet my pile of paper and 
your electronic simulation are, at some level, essentially the same.

For me, it is the only level that really counts. But that is because I know 
how to read, and like reading books. For someone who had never heard about 
reading, your steel and glass gadget and my pile of paper would be two very 
different things, and this entire discussion would make no sense.

So do I believe that an electronic simulation of me would, at some level, be 
the same as me? Yes, if only because it would behave, and talk to you and 
react pretty much as I would. You could say that its "meaning" would be the 
same as mine. Is this the only level that counts? I'm not prepared to say 
that yet. But then, perhaps I'm only learning to read. Perhaps if I had 
experienced the phenomenon ("Gee, it really is Dad in there!"), I'd have a 
different opinion.

Daniel Crevier

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Message #32516
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2010 13:33:11 -0700 (PDT)
From: david pizer <[email protected]>

Here is a brief paper of my "talking points" on several cryonics topics that I plan to talk about with people who are not cryonicists and may have religions concerns.

Any suggestions would be appreciated.

David Pizer
[email protected]


Cryonics/Religion

Brief explanation of cryonics.  

What reinforced my interest in cryonics is when I heard the U.S. military was supporting research by the Red Cross to develop techniques of cryonic suspension to use on our servicemen and women who were severely injured in combat and needed complicated medical help to save their lives,  but that the medical equipment, hospital setting and trained specialized doctors were too far away from the battlefield for the wounded soldiers to receive proper help in time to save their lives.   So the military is  interested in developing ways of suspending the injured soldiers (halting the dying process) and then sending them to hospitals located far away from the battlefield to be revived and receive medical treatment that might save their lives.


Dying is often not an instant event but happens of a period of time sometimes taking several minutes or longer.  Sometimes patients who are dying or what some people wold consider  temporary "dead" are revived with paddles or injections by emergency responders.  Cryonic Suspension is to be used when a person enters a state of no heart beat (from illness or accident) and could be declared legally dead but hopefully the cells of their body are still alive. Using cryonic procedure they are  put into a state of  suspended animation (where the dying process is hoped to be suspended) and the patient is hoped to be revived at a later time.


Space Travel 

Cryonics is also being studied by people interested in very long space travel to other stars where it will take hundreds of years to get to.


Religion

Matthew 10:8  Jesus instructs people to heal the sick and raise the dead.  

Many religions support hospitals where doctors today heal the sick.  Perhaps doctors in the future will do something that looks like raising the dead in a matter of speaking by reviving people who are suspended today and healing them in the future.

Religious people who are signed up for cryonics believe that if God wills it, cryonics will work and people will wake up in the future to continue to complete whatever God calls and plans for them.  

Neither cryonics organizations nor religions can guarantee eternal life, only God can do that.

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Message #32517
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2010 17:56:04 -0700
From: Mike Perry <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: (no subject)[promoting cryonics]
References: <[email protected]>

At 13:33 2010-03-28, david pizer wrote:

>Here is a brief paper of my "talking points" on several cryonics 
>topics that I plan to talk about with people who are not cryonicists 
>and may have religions concerns.
>
>Any suggestions would be appreciated.
>
>David Pizer
>[email protected]
>
>
>===============================
>Cryonics/Religion
>
>[...]
>Religion
>
>Matthew 10:8  Jesus instructs people to heal the sick and raise the dead.
>
>Many religions support hospitals where doctors today heal the 
>sick.  Perhaps doctors in the future will do something that looks 
>like raising the dead in a matter of speaking by reviving people who 
>are suspended today and healing them in the future.
>
>Religious people who are signed up for cryonics believe that if God 
>wills it, cryonics will work and people will wake up in the future 
>to continue to complete whatever God calls and plans for them.
>
>Neither cryonics organizations nor religions can guarantee eternal 
>life, only God can do that.

I've added a little in the version below and otherwise edited 
lightly. In the last sentence I prefer "a higher power" as being a 
little more theologically neutral. (Could perhaps refer to something 
other than the traditional idea of a "God" though that possibility is 
not discounted.)

Religion

Matthew 10:8  Jesus instructs people to heal the sick and raise the 
dead.  Paul in Philippians 1:23-26 says he would rather depart this 
life and be with Christ, "for it is far better," but for the sake of 
others he wants to remain here on Earth. A Christian, then, will want 
to stay longer in this life to do as much good in the world as 
possible. Making a try at a longer life can be justified even if 
success is not guaranteed, as is true with conventional medicine.

Many religions support hospitals where doctors today heal the 
sick.  Perhaps doctors in the future will do something that looks 
like raising the dead by reviving people who are suspended today and 
healing them with means that are not yet available.

Religious people who are signed up for cryonics believe that if God 
wills it, cryonics will work and people will wake up in the future to 
continue to complete whatever God calls and plans for them.

Neither cryonics organizations nor religions can guarantee eternal 
life, only a higher power can do that.

Mike Perry

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