CryoNet #32613 - #32617

CryoNet - Sun 13 Jun 2010

    #32613: Re: Silver Platters Ignored... [robomoon]
    #32614: Re: Silver Platters Ignored, in Cryonics  [John de Rivaz]
    #32615: Re: Silver Platters Ignored, in Cryonics [David Stodolsky]
    #32616: The Enduring Myth of One Quick Promotional Fix [Charles Platt]
    #32617: The Enduring Myth of One Quick Promotional Fix [John de Rivaz]

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Message #32613
Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2010 13:32:41 +0200 (CEST)
From: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Silver Platters Ignored...

Regarding progress: right, compared to something like electronics there was little progress in cryonics over the last 40 years. And it would be no wonder if there are no useful statistics available to check if the pace of technical progress in comparison to it's financial progress has slowed down for more than 50 Percent over the last 20 years. Yes, that's something those on the payroll at some cryonics organizations can happily bear.

Regarding economics and my personal payroll, it actually occurs to me that I belong to a social class of the one Percent of citizens with the lowest financial income in Germany. For more than ten years I have tried to earn more money so I could afford to sign up for cryonics without being a burden to my family and their own needs my income has to fulfill. But as I grew older, I even got more ill than before, so after I lost my last job opportunities more and more, I got retired anyways. No resources, not even http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/tradecommunity could pull the nuggets out of nowhere for me. 

The other way in economics I tried is to make cryonics cheaper - see all the messages robomoon posted to CryoNet, Cold Filter, ImmInst, and related forums. Of cause, there was success to get in contact with Russian providers KrioRus and CryoFreedom, but the communications with them are limited due to their small staffing. Despite or because of there apparently low funding requirements they don't have much business sense to work out an extra cheap contract arrangement with all the details required to make payments easy and convenient.

Cryonics and payroll are close together, despite of various individuals telling me how cheap it can be with Life Insurance (as if everyone in the world can easily get a cheap one). Thank you, Melody Maxim, very much for that! So we see it's the wrong time to tell people like me I'm a deathist, let's talk payroll instead!

///



-- 
WM 2010: Top News, Spielplane, Public Viewing-Termine, E-Cards und alles, 
was der Fan sonst noch braucht, gibt's im Sport-Channel auf arcor.de.
http://www.arcor.de/rd/footer.wm2010

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Message #32614
From: "John de Rivaz" <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Silver Platters Ignored, in Cryonics 
Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2010 16:22:36 +0100

What really needs to be done if this is to be taken seriously is to get a list of firms and qualified individuals willing to participate and a schedule of costs. Then compare this to the salaries that are being paid to the people Melody considers unsuitable, and put this to the LEF, and see if they would be interested in altering their grant structure.

I have a horrible suspicion that firms and individuals willing to participate could not be found, and/or that the figures would not add up, but I could be totally wrong.

-- 
Sincerely, John de Rivaz:  http://John.deRivaz.com for websites including
Cryonics Europe, Longevity Report, The Venturists, Porthtowan, Alec Harley
Reeves - inventor, Arthur Bowker - potter, de Rivaz genealogy,  Nomad .. and
more

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Message #32615
Subject: Re: Silver Platters Ignored, in Cryonics
From: David Stodolsky <[email protected]>
Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2010 21:52:56 +0200
References: <[email protected]>

On 12 Jun 2010, at 11:00 AM, Melody Maxim wrote:

> The bottom line: Unless cryonicists want another 40 years of little progress, and lots of scandal, some of the faces need to change, starting at the top. It doesn't matter how much money any given benefactor pours in. Unless it is funding progress, that money is of no benefit to anyone, other than those on the payroll.

Without integrity, there is no trust and confidence. Expecting people to hand over a large sum of cash for many tens of years of suspension will be impeded by any lack of this type. False accusations and the attempted censorship we have seen in this Forum hurts the Movement. When an organization comes across as a bunch of amateurs, that doesn't inspire confidence. When that amateurism continues when professionally trained people are available and proven products are available, that is mismanagement that destroys trust. The problems that Melody mention amount to a crisis of integrity that impedes growth and may destroy the movement.  

In addition to the problems with personnel and equipment she mentions, there is also a crisis in the promotion of cryonics. The belief that improvements in suspension technology will lead to the acceptance of cryonics is incorrect. Even the revival of a human being will not lead to a dramatic change in attitudes. This fundamental misunderstanding is one key element in the failure of growth that we now see. 

Another key element is the inappropriate marketing strategy. I have previously illustrated how the two major impediments to growth could be eliminated: lack of short-term benefits and economic barriers. If the marketing strategy was updated, then we would be looking forward to having about a third of the population signed up. This would provide the social acceptance and political stability, needed to protect suspendees, that we don't have now. Every movement must make a transition from being isolationist to being a mass movement. Otherwise, it faces decline. The lack of growth in sign ups is an indication that an inflection point has been reached. If cryonics is not made acceptable and available to a larger segment of the population, it is likely we will see a decline. 


dss

David Stodolsky
[email protected]  Skype: davidstodolsky

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Message #32616
Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2010 13:58:58 -0700
Subject: The Enduring Myth of One Quick Promotional Fix
From: Charles Platt <[email protected]>

David Stodolsky writes: "If the marketing strategy was updated, then
we would be looking forward to having about a third of the population
signed up."

David, since you often chide others for failing to substantiate their
claims with appropriately rigorous statistical methodology, what would
be the basis for your absurd claim that we can sign up "a third of the
population" simply by presenting cryonics to them in some unspecified
new way? And which population are you talking about, anyway? World
population? North America? USA? Russia?

You are aware perhaps that the Omni Immortality Contest, about 15
years ago, offered free cryopreservation arrangements to the winner,
who merely had to write a 500-word essay explaining why he or she
wanted to be cryopreserved. Omni's readers were an ideal audience,
since they were mostly techno-optimists. The magazine had a
circulation approaching 1 million at that time, and the contest
attracted a lot of publicity, including a half-hour nationally
networked TV show. Omni's PR department estimated that about 10
million people in the USA heard about the contest, one way or another.
So what happened? We received fewer than 400 entries. The winner
didn't even bother to fill out his signup documents until Alcor
threatened to take his prize away. And then he disappeared a few years
later.

This is just one example. There have been many other attempts to
promote cryonics. Now, tell me again, how easy it can be?

To me, a big problem in cryonics is that enthusiasts such as yourself
persist in imagining that one "quick fix" can change everything. Bob
Ettinger persisted in this belief for decades (which helps to explain
why he is said to have wasted $25,000 on Olga Visser, the lady who
claimed to be able to revive a frozen rat heart). In reality there are
no quick fixes. Cryobiology is very difficult. Finding stable,
trustworthy people to perform field work is very difficult. Hiring
hard-working, nondelusional CEOs is very difficult. And promoting
cryonics is extremely difficult, mainly because, almost anyone can see
that cryonics doesn't work yet. You are not going to sell something
that doesn't work, but is quite expensive, to one-third of the
population (any population).

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Message #32617
From: "John de Rivaz" <[email protected]>
Subject: The Enduring Myth of One Quick Promotional Fix
Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2010 09:39:47 +0100

I would like to endorse what Charles Platt has just written, although I would have been happier if the word "absurd" was left out - it doesn't encourage objective reading of the rest of the article. I would ask everyone angered by it to re read the article and imagine the word isn't there.

At the end, it says
>>>
And promoting
cryonics is extremely difficult, mainly because, almost anyone can see
that cryonics doesn't work yet. You are not going to sell something
that doesn't work, but is quite expensive, to one-third of the
population (any population).

<<<

The first sentence is correct in that it includes "yet". But the second sentence makes the statement that it doesn't work, with the implication that it doesn't work ever. Again I would ask people to ignore this. What the population has to be made to realise is that although cryonics revivals can't happen right now, they may happen in the future. Not will happen, but may happen. It is that "may" that needs to be taught (not sold) to the world. Once people learn this lesson, they can make an informed choice as to whether to sign for cryonics or not. Whilst they still believe that it will never work, then they are not making an informed choice.

-- 
Sincerely, John de Rivaz:  http://John.deRivaz.com for websites including
Cryonics Europe, Longevity Report, The Venturists, Porthtowan, Alec Harley
Reeves - inventor, Arthur Bowker - potter, de Rivaz genealogy,  Nomad .. and
more

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