CryoNet #32676 - #32680

CryoNet - Sun 27 Jun 2010

    #32676: Another style of advertising for cryonics [Jonano]
    #32677: Re: CryoNet #32671 [robomoon]
    #32678: Re: Question for Dr. Stodolsky [John de Rivaz]
    #32679: Re: Question for Mr. Stodolsky [David Stodolsky]
    #32680: New season of Futurama [Edgar Swank - President]

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Message #32676
Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2010 11:49:26 +0200
Subject: Another style of advertising for cryonics
From: Jonano <[email protected]>

Alcor, CI and SA dont advertise their product, their company/organisation on TV.

But you can, as an individual, advertise your death and your
cryopreservation in your own local TV channel.

It's another style of advertising, and it makes you more popular, and
a good way to sell yourself.

Don't advertise Alcor. Advertise your life, your person.

--Jon

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Message #32677
Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2010 13:16:57 +0200 (CEST)
From: [email protected]
References: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: CryoNet #32671

Nope, chemical fixation itself shouldn't be marketed as a kind of sophisticated embalming. It might annoy some traditional embalmers the same way clycerol perfusion as a kind of "sophisticated medical perfusion" annoyed some medical perfusionists. Therefore, it should be marketed as a sophisticated kind of "non-cryogenic fixation". While the brains are getting donated, bodies could be given the customary religious send-off. Yes, and it could also allow sensibly priced cremation options for sea burials and something or better alternatives like green burials.

However, it should not be desirable to preserve fixated brains and body ashes (or perhaps whole plastinated bodies) in a columbarium-like environment. It's not only to avoid misconceptions like: "dad, I'll take granny back home, she looks so real, OK?" But it's good enough to donate only the brain for enclosure in an environment as secure as cryostats are by todays standards and release the body for burial to the people who want to pay their respects to a biologically deceased body the common way.
> 
> Message #32671
> Subject: brain preservation
> 


-- 
WM 2010: Top News, Spielplane, Public Viewing-Termine, E-Cards und alles, 
was der Fan sonst noch braucht, gibt's im Sport-Channel auf arcor.de.
http://www.arcor.de/rd/footer.wm2010

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Message #32678
From: "John de Rivaz" <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Question for Dr. Stodolsky
Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2010 13:08:45 +0100

I would suspect that Ferrari could mount a huge advertising campaign for 
their sports cars, but I doubt that they would sell many more than they do 
now. The reason is that the cost is more than most people can afford or 
justify.

Just like most people have heard of cryonics, most people have heard of 
Ferrari cars and are aware that they are very nice desireable cars. They 
would love to own one.

Likewise most cryonicists would love it if Dr Stodolsky spent his own money 
and own time trying out his ideas, and if they worked would consider him to 
be a hero. But the reality is as with the red "varoomy" cars - affording or 
justifying the cost.

I don't think his competance is the real issue at hand.

-- 
Sincerely, John de Rivaz:  http://John.deRivaz.com for websites including
Cryonics Europe, Longevity Report, The Venturists, Porthtowan, Alec Harley
Reeves - inventor, Arthur Bowker - potter, de Rivaz genealogy,  Nomad .. and
more

Subject: Question for Dr. Stodolsky
From: MARK PLUS [email protected]
<del>
Why do you have such a hard
time convincing other cryonicists of your special competence in this
area?
<del> 

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Message #32679
Subject: Re: Question for Mr. Stodolsky
From: David Stodolsky <[email protected]>
Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2010 20:22:52 +0200
References: <[email protected]>

On 26 Jun 2010, at 11:00 AM, CryoNet wrote:

> Mr. Stodolsky:

Formal address would have to be 'Dr.', since I have earned the PhD degree.


> 
> After reading your posts for the past several months, I have to ask
> the following:
> 
> For someone who professes a sophisticated knowledge of social science
> and who thinks he can communicate the cryonics idea to the public more
> effectively than we've managed so far, why do you have such a hard
> time convincing other cryonicists of your special competence in this
> area?

I have not said I can communicate the cryonics idea more effectively.  I have stated that the cryonics idea alone will not sell and therefore has to be packaged in a more attractive vehicle. 

I responded to this competence question earlier with extensive documentation. No one questioned my expertise in social science.


> 
> In other words, your inability to sell your expertise to us seems to
> conflict with your claim that you could sell cryonics to others
> currently not disposed towards the idea.

Almost everyone on this List is already committed to the current marketing strategy. Unfortunately, as I have posted recently, the current strategy ignores the most basic principles of marketing. And immediately after posting this List of ineffective strategies, the individual on this List with the best access to funding, provided us with a comment that confirmed his approach did indeed violate every one of these principles. 

We can explain this inability to learn from the ideological positions of the participants. Most of the persons involved with Alcor are strongly individualistic. This motivated some of them to invest heavily in the 'Cryocare' fiasco, the only 'social' innovation in cryonics previously attempted. My proposal is based upon group dynamics, an ideological blind spot for extreme individualists. 

Most persons supporting CI appear to accept the view of R. Ettinger, that social science/marketing is 'obvious' and nothing to improve the current strategy can be done. The fact that billions are spent on marketing every year, based upon advanced social science methods, appears to be ignored.

Finally, the majority of persons on the List are supporters of cryonics, so their personal interest is toward improvements in suspension technology, not improvements in marketing. This is compounded by a refusal to recognize socio-political risk as a real threat to their own existence. 

So, we face ideological and economic barriers to acceptance of a new approach to marketing or even correcting the obviously incompetent and wasteful practices currently present. These barriers to progress are much the same as those faced in 'selling cryonics' to the public at large.

On the positive side, many of the proposals that I have made do get a positive response from people on this List. Unfortunately, serious social science research is expensive, so that support alone is not particularly useful. Finally, the Movement is not yet large enough to have an industry association or accrediting agency that could see beyond the day-to-day needs of cryonics organizations. The only organization in this type of role, The Venturist Society, seems to be 'missing in action'. This is probably related to the fact that its members must be signed-up persons.

So, your question is not particularly well directed, since it is not obvious that there is any lack of support from this List or that my competence is in question. The relevant question is why parts of the Movement persist in ignoring the most basic principles of political science, marketing, human resource management, and equipment procurement. 


dss



David Stodolsky
[email protected]  Skype: davidstodolsky

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Message #32680
Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2010 16:18:35 -0700
From: Edgar Swank - President <[email protected]>
Subject: New season of Futurama

Fans of the original series will be glad to learn it has been 
resurrected, and the first 2 episodes have been broadcast, and are also 
available via file-sharing to anyone on the net.

While the main purpose of this series is humor. This first episode of 
the new season addresses some issues tied to cryonics.

At the start of the episode, the characters are involved in a rocket 
ship chase through space. As they are about to crash, the Professor 
hands out portable protective force fields. His covers his whole body, 
but the others only protect the wearer's head. After the crash, the 
professor is fine, but the other "survivors" are just intact heads 
attached to skeletons. They are revived by being dropped into a vat of 
stem cells, and are ejected naked from a sphincter in the side of the 
vat. One of the characters, the lovely one-eyed Lela, apparently does 
not survive the treatment. So based on her memories recorded by external 
observations, she is recreated as a realistic robot android. With the 
same memories, the robot Lela thinks she is the real Lela. But then the 
real Lela is also revived and now there are two.

So this episode addresses some issues vital to cryonics. How much damage 
is survivable? What is or is not satisfactory reconstruction of identity?

There are some other twists, and the whole episode is very funny, as was 
the original series, so I recommend you try to view it.

-- 
Edgar W. Swank   <[email protected]>
President - American Cryonics Society
http://AmericanCryonics.org

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