CryoNet #32991 - #32996
CryoNet <[email protected]> 28 Oct 2010 09:00:02 -0000
| Newsgroups | gmane.culture.science.cryogenics |
|---|---|
| Message-ID | <[email protected]> |
CryoNet - Thu 28 Oct 2010
#32991: Re: response to gerald monroe [John de Rivaz]
#32992: Fear of the future and pharmacology [MARK PLUS]
#32993: borrowing from religion [Ettinger]
#32994: Re: CryoNet #32986 - #32990 [Gerald Monroe]
#32995: Re: CryoNet #32983 - #32985 [Gerald Monroe] [David Stodolsky]
#32996: cryonics will grow when we realize we are freaks [un person]
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Message #32991
From: "John de Rivaz" <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: response to gerald monroe
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 11:09:47 +0100
I couldn't agree more. The problem with most slightly wealthy people is that
it costs a significant amount to keep their money for themselves through
cryopreservation and reanimation -- more money than their apparent wealth
suggests or can provide. [the occupation of lawyer often produces "slightly
wealthy" people over a lifetime, so they are trying to use their wealth to
employ someone similar over significantly more than a lifetime which seems
impossible even though it isn't full time.] This is why experimental
organisations set up for the purpose can't even keep up with inflation.
However with seriously wealthy people, ie billionaires, the cost of legal
and fiduciary services is significantly smaller than their wealth, so it
would be possible to take money with them through cryopreservation and
reanimation. These people are usually industrialists - they have created
wealth for which they have received such rewards from the world as a whole,
unlikely the slightly wealthy professionals who merely keep the wheels of
government turning.
It is therefore particularly dissapointing that none of them seem to have
taken up the cryonics idea. Of course they could have done with an
organisation like the Institute for Preservation of Lenin - just for one
person. It would be no different to having a provate jet or yacht.
--
Sincerely, John de Rivaz: http://John.deRivaz.com for websites including
Cryonics Europe, Longevity Report, The Venturists, Porthtowan, Alec Harley
Reeves - inventor, Arthur Bowker - potter, de Rivaz genealogy, Nomad .. and
more
----- Original Message -----
From: CryoNet
Message #32990
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 17:57:46 -0700
Subject: response to gerald monroe
From: Charles in Arizona <[email protected]>
<del>
The first step in signing up
wealthy people is to respect their right to keep their money for
themselves.
Charles Platt
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Message #32992
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 07:36:54 -0700
Subject: Fear of the future and pharmacology
From: MARK PLUS <[email protected]>
I throw this out as pure speculation about dealing with "fear of the
future" as an impediment to making cryonics arrangements.
Beta blockers:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beta_blocker#Anxiety_and_performance_enhancement
--
Mark Plus
Life is short: Freeze hard!
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Message #32993
From: [email protected]
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 11:10:27 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: borrowing from religion
This discussion has been repeated many times, but I guess reminders are
needed.
Yes, we can benefit by borrowing ideas from religion, but the topic isn't
simple.
To my knowledge, so far the only formal cryonics-related religion is
Venturism, the Church of Venturism having been recognized by the IRS. But as far
as I know there has been little success in attracting members. Merely
saying you are a religion isn't enough, and in fact opponents have accused
cryonics of being a religion while not giving it the respect that most religions
receive.
What makes some religions succeed, and what movements or institutions have
some features of religion and succeed? It's pretty clear that the explicit
content of the doctrine doesn't have much to do with it. And of course some
recognized religions, such as Buddhism, do not even speak of any God,
while some ostensibly non-religious or even anti-religious movements succeed by
exploiting common features of religion.
For example, Marxism/Leninism is basically a religion. For God,
substitute the State or Posterity. The worker willingly works himself to death for
the sake of his ideal. In the West, humanism is somewhat similar--for God or
for your ideal, substitute humanity or posterity.
Currently, oddball notions such as Cosmism and Terasem attempt something
similar, but we know that relatively few people would welcome radical change,
and I am pretty sure that these ideas can't go far. They will be seen not
only as pie in the sky, but a nasty flavor too.
On the other hand, many types of endeavor successfully copy some of the
features of standard religion. Fraternal organizations use social networking
and do-good of one sort or another to provide inspiration and attract
members. Political parties assemble volunteers who derive some of their
recompense by interaction with others of like mind. A little praise or a plaque now
and then can go a long way.
To make the cryonics organizations provide more in the way of social
support has been suggested many times and occasionally even tried a little, e.g.
with meetings at CI that Ben organized. Lack of success can be attributed
to various things, including small numbers of local members and a tendency
of cryonicists to be loners.
Past failures are cautionary, but not conclusive. New blood and new
conditions could mean better results.
One of the problems with implementation is the burnout effect, or giving up
when there is little or no apparent progress. I don't have any easy answer
to that, but as the fellow said, if you give up in advance you have
already lost.
Robert Ettinger
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Message #32994
References: <[email protected]>
From: Gerald Monroe <[email protected]>
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 14:15:20 -0500
Subject: Re: CryoNet #32986 - #32990
--0016361e7e1820af5504939e0dc5
>
> As for your description of billionaires as being "irrational," this is
> an attitude which is not going to get you very far. People with a lot
> of money are, in my experience, highly sensitive to the desire of
> other people to spend some of that money. The first step in signing up
> wealthy people is to respect their right to keep their money for
> themselves.
>
That has to be a huge part of it. A billionaire is going to be inundated
with requests for money. Still, what good does it do one to have incredible
amounts of money in the bank when natural causes kill you anyway? Even if a
billionaire dies surrounded by the world's best doctors and dozens of
apparently loving families members, he or she still dies and that brain rots
away. One would think that an individual smart and lucky enough to become
this wealthy would take a crack at solving this problem. There's also aging
research which might someday figure out exactly what causes humans to age.
It isn't as controversial as cryonics, but you never hear about
billionaires donating to that either.
--0016361e7e1820af5504939e0dc5
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Message #32995
Subject: Re: CryoNet #32983 - #32985 [Gerald Monroe]
From: David Stodolsky <[email protected]>
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 21:53:31 +0200
References: <[email protected]>
On 27 Oct 2010, at 11:00 AM, CryoNet wrote:
> Any rational billionaire would be on this in a heartbeat. Nothing else
> makes any sense from a rational view. What irrational reasons are
> preventing this from happening?
First, the idea that this is a predominantly rational process should be dismissed. Except for atheists, the balancing of costs vs. benefits will never occur. The person will have an emotional response to any thought related to their own death and that will suppress any further consideration. My reanalysis of the Badger data posted here earlier explains this in detail. The conclusion was that current marketing targets atheist millionaires.
We also know that existential concerns are resolved in middle age. Since wealth tends to increase with age, it is likely that many billionaires have already made up their minds on the issue.
Second, the individual-oriented marketing strategy fails to take into account what guides most people's decisionmaking process in this area. The approach fails to deal with the relational objections - loss of friends and family, etc.- and doesn't consider the role of sub(culture) in influencing decisions of this type.
Finally, many believe in overpopulation, global warming, energy and resource shortages, etc. and feel that it would be immoral not to 'make room' for the new generation.
So, there are several factors that can account for the seeming irrationality of the rich.
dss
David Stodolsky
[email protected] Skype: davidstodolsky
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Message #32996
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 17:38:11 -0700 (PDT)
From: un person <[email protected]>
Subject: cryonics will grow when we realize we are freaks
some dude on cold filter just read something written by mike darwin and exclaimed about how fascinating it was.
Here is my reply:
Yeah, darwin's writing is fascinating to many cryonicists and like minded people. But we are a tiny fraction of 1 percent of the population. If we want to grow cryonics then when we write about cryonics and make it fascinating to a LARGE percentage of the population, then we will grow.
But while we write about cryonics in a way that only a small fraction of 1 percent of the population find fascinating, then cryonics will remain moribund.
Here is the fundamental fact--we are fundamentally similar to merely a tiny tiny fraction of the populace. And we write things that appeal to people like us.
That is why cryonics cannot grow-- we do not realize that we are freaks. Overcome your contempt for the unwashed masses and sell cryonics in a way they can understand.
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