CryoNet #33072 - #33075

CryoNet - Thu 25 Nov 2010

    #33072: Re: CryoNet #33061 - #33063 [David Stodolsky]
    #33073: Re: discussion of Alcor's financial condition [david pizer]
    #33074: Re: CryoNet #33069 - #33071 [David Stodolsky]
    #33075: Cryonics in Australian edition of Rolling Stone [benbest]

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Message #33072
Subject: Re: CryoNet #33061 - #33063
From: David Stodolsky <[email protected]>
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2010 16:10:18 +0100
References: <[email protected]>

On 23 Nov 2010, at 11:00 AM, CryoNet wrote:

> What we really need is for cryonics to become a common medical procedure
> supported by medicare.  I keep hearing about how 40% of all medicare dollars
> are spent on the last month of life.

This rumor has no empirical support.

>  It would save the government (and
> society) ludicrous amounts of money if cryonic preservations were done
> rather than medical procedures that have low chances of success.  

Current funding limits for treatment of illnesses in the UK are somewhat greater then CI rates. So, we probably have a break even, financially.


> And if the
> federal government built the vaults, they could be in decommissioned missile
> silos next to military bases and other places that would be virtually
> guaranteed to be intact for centuries with minimal odds of failure.
> I don't know what it would take to get to that point (other than
> demonstrated success with an actual revival of a human) 

This widespread view is not supported in the Badger data. In fact, the evidence suggests that revival of a human would have virtually no effect on signups. See my earlier CryoNet message, "The Damned:....", etc.

What it would do, is prepare the Movement for the 'long march through the institutions'. That is, it could be the basis for law suits and sustained political lobbying that would eventually change the definition of death, etc. 


> Gates and Buffet are spending billions helping out the poorest
> peoples of the globe.

That is the cover story and it is true as far as it goes. However, the Gates fortune is based upon intellectual property rights, and those rights are being questioned, particularly by those dying, because they can't afford patented drugs, etc. Thus, the funding of HIV treatment in Africa, for example, could be seen as a wise investment in defending the current intellectual property regime by reducing some of  its most extreme negative effects.

Gates money is also being used to influence education policy in the USA through what some have termed "bribery," because that is what it would be if the money came directly from Gates, as opposed to from his Foundation.

The Gates Foundation help to the homeless recently got some bad press, when it was discovered that the investment side of the operation was a major player in companies taking peoples' homes away.

So, it would probably be more accurate to say that the money is being spent in manner designed to protect Gates' interests.



> *Now* you've got the beginnings of a movement.  People want
> this.  Everyone's afraid of death.  

Many will deny this. And we compete head on with the Pope in selling a solution to this fear.


> They just don't really take the idea of
> cryonics seriously for a variety of reasons.  

Lack of cultural integration is probably the main impediment.


> I think thousands of people,
> all talking about the subject could make an enormous difference.

Not a political difference on a nationwide scale. To achieve this, we need a self-sustaining high growth-rate strategy. A billionaire donor could get us started more effectively, but that can't be a long-term solution.


dss

David Stodolsky
[email protected]  Skype: davidstodolsky

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Message #33073
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2010 10:43:47 -0800 (PST)
From: david pizer <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: discussion of Alcor's financial condition

Regarding the discussion on Cryonet about Alcor's financial condition and the 
point some people have made about membership growth being something that will 
bring Alcor's costs and expenses down in the future, I wish to comment on this.

THE MAIN PROBLEM:  In some cases, Alcor sells a service to be provided sometime 
in the future at today's prices.  So they figure what a suspension will cost 
today and price it at a fair price.  Some "customers" do die shortly after 
purchasing a suspension, but many don't get their suspension for many years 
after they pay for it.  When those "customers" do get their suspension it may 
cost Alcor more (perhaps much more) then the price they charged many years 
earlier.

Alcor attempts to compensate for this situation by collecting dues from that 
member all those years.  

CHANGES IN HOW ALCOR OBTAINS WORKERS NOW CAUSES A RISE IN EXPENSES.  Alcor also 
had a tradition of receiving volunteer labor for many years in the early days.   
When I was on the Board and Vice President and Treasurer for 11 years these were 
 working positions so I averaged working 20 or more hours a week at the Alcor 
facility for no pay for over 11 years.  I did this along with up to a dozen 
others who also volunteered to work for free (and pay our own car and other 
expenses too) or who worked for a below market wage and so they volunteered some 
of their time at least.

In these hard times the Alcor Board may want to consider going back to more 
volunteer workers where the Alcor workers volunteer their time or some of it, 
and pay market rate for the skills Alcor cannot find volunteers for?

SOME OPTIONS: In other words Alcor needs to either: (1)  Find wealthy members to 
subsidize Alcor's expenses, (2) find members to volunteer some of their time to 
do work for Alcor,  (3) raise prices.

WORST OPTION:  In my opinion, raising prices in this economy will be a 
disaster.  It will have a spiraling effect as Alcor raises the prices members 
will be forced to drop.  As members drop Alcor will take in less money and have 
to raise prices even more which over time which will force even more members to 
have to drop and so on and so forth.
  
Besides the reduction in income Alcor will face if they raise prices, there will 
be people who will not be able to afford to have the prospect of the possible 
benefits cryonics may produce.  So this option has a cost to some people more 
then money.

BEST OPTION  Alcor needs someone to work with it's wealthy members and get them 
to help subsidize Alcor's expenses.  In the old days several of us helped raise 
quite a lot of money, even after we left working at Alcor money kept coming in, 
in the form of donations and bequeaths.   I think that very large sums could be 
raised now if Alcor had a full time person working with it's wealthy members.  
Most non-profits have a person or department doing this.  Only dedicated Alcor 
signed-up members should do this kind of work for Alcor.

I am sure the Alcor Board is aware of these problems and these problems are the 
number one thing Alcor Directors are working on right now.

David Pizer

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Message #33074
Subject: Re: CryoNet #33069 - #33071
From: David Stodolsky <[email protected]>
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2010 21:16:14 +0100
References: <[email protected]>

On 24 Nov 2010, at 11:00 AM, CryoNet wrote:
>> 
>> Previously, I suggested a 'pay as you go' plan for suspension funding. This 
>> would have the advantage of being able to raise rates to adjust for 
>> inflation or new technology, without triggering the disputes mentioned.
>> 
> Once the directors were bankrupted and locked up it would 
> be disbanded and the patients buried.


My proposal doesn't concern the suspension provider (eg, not CI, but IS). 


> David Stodolsky, wrote: "If we could get back to the growth rates we
> were seeing up to 2004, it would mean that prices could be cut
> sharply."
> 
> This is nonsense. Robert Freitas has performed a huge service (for
> free, I believe) by digging up the real numbers, which show that each
> additional Alcor member has imposed a net cost on the organization. In
> other words, growth has been a financial burden. I have been arguing
> that this is likely for years. There are no economies of scale during
> this "middle period" of cryonics, where the organization is not large
> enough to set up regional centers.
> 
> The Freitas document is here:
> http://www.alcor.org/Library/pdfs/EconometricModelOfAlcorFinances.pdf


As far as I can see from scanning the text, this is actually an argument in favor of my Proposal. It shows that severe problems will result, if Alcor continues with the prepayment funding model. My 'pay as you go' funding model is based upon a totally different assumption.


dss


David Stodolsky
[email protected]  Skype: davidstodolsky

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Message #33075
Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2010 01:40:27 -0500
From: [email protected]
Subject: Cryonics in Australian edition of Rolling Stone

  The Australian edition of Rolling Stone magazine

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolling_Stone_Australia

has recently published a fairly favorable review of

cryonics:   http://db.tt/LmUDKyG

which Australian CI Member Marta Sandberg asked

me to post here on CryoNet.

  The Cryonics Institute currently has 101 patients,

most of whom (82) deanimated in the United States,

but Australia comes in second with 5 and Canada

is third with 3. Oddly, the United Kingdom has

nearly twice as many CI Members as Australia, and

Australia is only slightly ahead of Canada in terms

of number of CI Members, but only 2 CI patients have

deanimated in the United Kingdom.

   -- Ben Best

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