CryoNet #33145 - #33149

CryoNet - Tue 28 Dec 2010

    #33145: Re: Just a thought  [John de Rivaz]
    #33146: Re: Just a thought [David Stodolsky]
    #33147: Focus on protecting our existing patients [Jens Rabis]
    #33148: Re: CryoNet #33139 - #33144 [Gerald Monroe]
    #33149: Scoring Cases [M2darwin]

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Message #33145
From: "John de Rivaz" <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Just a thought 
Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2010 10:20:27 -0000

I was speaking to someone over the holidays who said that he would never 
consider cryopreservation on account of the risk of a revival into a hellish 
future. I countered that it is easy enough to make people. If your sole 
purpose is to enjoy their suffering, why go to the trouble of reviving and 
rejuvenating a cryopreserved patient. However this was insufficient in terms 
of a "sound byte" to convince him.

There have been dystopic science fiction novels written about revivals into 
less than satisfactory futures, but they usually have "our hero" winning 
through in the end.

Linda Negata's Tech Heaven is one
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN=B0049U48XC/longevitybooksA/

and Larry Niven's World Out of Time is another
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN=0345336968/longevitybooksA/

Dr Thomas Donaldson, now in cryopreservation with Alcor, once said of the 
latter that he didn't like it much as the hero was "batted about the 
universe like a ping pong ball".

But after various trials and tribulations Niven's character did get a star 
ship all of his own, which can't be bad! [I always thought that the USS 
Enterprise with its huge crew was really a wooden sailing ship in disguise. 
With automation, one person could fly a star ship on his own as did 
Corbell.]

-- 
Sincerely, John de Rivaz:  http://John.deRivaz.com for websites including
Cryonics Europe, Longevity Report, The Venturists, Porthtowan, Alec Harley
Reeves - inventor, Arthur Bowker - potter, de Rivaz genealogy,  Nomad .. and
more

----- Original Message ----- 
Message #33143
From: "Chris Manning" <[email protected]>
Subject: Just a thought
Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2010 10:10:50 +1100

Just a thought I had recently which I will share with other cryonicists for 
what it may be worth (maybe 2c Australian).

There are many possible scenarios in which revival from cryopreservation 
will be technically possible but problematic for other reasons, <del> 

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Message #33146
From: David Stodolsky <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Just a thought
Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2010 12:12:32 +0100
References: <[email protected]>

--Apple-Mail-19--538943154


On 27 Dec 2010, at 12:18 AM, chris wrote:

> There are many possible scenarios in which revival from cryopreservation will be technically possible but problematic for other reasons, e.g. revival may be outlawed due to overpopulation.

This is fallacious and considering it would be a concession to our ideological opponents. 

<http://www.againstthegrain.org/program/364/id/441518/wed-11-03-10-overpopulation-cause-environmental-degradation>

https://sites.google.com/a/cosmism.info/cosmism/faq

While it is widely acknowledge that human labor is a critical input to wealth production, neoliberal economic theory undervalues this input, since it focuses upon the capital inputs. There are many negative effects of this form of social organization, including the massive expenditures on military production - the production of death. 


> I am surprised that these possibilities aren't being canvassed more in the cryonics community. Anyway, the thought I had is as follows:
> 

> 
> More generally, I think readers ought to be asking themselves in what possible future circumstances they do or do not wish to be revived.

This needs to be framed as improved possibilities, however, the uncertainty involved makes this more of an exercise in fantasy than anything else. There is a risk that restriction on revival would tie the hands of those trying to do the best for cryonicists in the future.


dss


David Stodolsky
[email protected]  Skype: davidstodolsky







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Message #33147
From: "Jens Rabis" <[email protected]>
Subject: Focus on protecting our existing patients
Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2010 13:02:45 +0100

Hi cryonauts,

what do you think of an additional like financial security, which is not
dependent on the financial market and very flexible? The idea is not new and
proven. 
The frozen are now not only patients ... are also retirees / pensioners.
We have 100 frozen. There are new frozen, when there are 300 contributors
pay the refrigerant for the 100 frozen.
We have 100+1 frozen. There are new frozen, when there are 300+3
contributors pay the refrigerant.
The ratio 1:3 I had chosen arbitrarily, it must be calculated yet, what are
the contributors willing to pay?

I call that reasonable growth, with focus on the protection of the already
frozen.
  
The countries of the world would be happy, to have such a restrictive(!)
pension scheme for your population. Our frozen pensioners are very
undemanding.

I do not believe in a responsible financial market. But I believe in the
working mans and artists. Refrigerant is for us an essential(!!!) matter. 
But it also gives us time ... another advantage over the "normal" pension
system that:
 - against time
 - against the compound interest
running. 

We have a clear advantage :-) 

I would like to member of the first group of 3. Who wants to? I am 43 years
old, so you should also be more than the 35-45 years old. We have 30-40
years
pay for "our" pensioners. We should also now arrange to have it added in the
coming decades 9 new contributors. Each 3 for us. The 9 contributors will 
pay more somewhat because they have to pay for our(!) pensioner.


****

Was haltet ihr von einer zusatzlichen finanziellen Absicherung, welche nicht
vom Finanzmarkt abhangig ist und sehr flexibel?  
Die Idee ist nicht neu und bewahrt. Die Eingefrorenen sind ab sofort nicht
nur Patienten, sondern auch Rentner / Pensionare.
Wir haben 100 Eingefrorene. Es werden erst wieder Menschen eingefrorenen,
wenn es 300 Beitragszahler gibt, welche denen das Kaltemittel bezahlen. 
Wir haben 100+1 Eingefrorene. Es werden erst wieder Menschen eingefrorenen,
wenn es 300+3 Beitragszahler gibt, welche das Kaltemittel bezahlen. 
Das Verhaltnis 1:3 habe ich willkurlich gewahlt, es muss noch berechnet
werden. Was sind die Beitragszahler bereit zu zahlen?

Die Staaten der Welt wurden sich freuen, so ein restriktives(!) Rentensystem
fur Ihre Bevolkerung zu haben. Unsere eingefrorenen Rentner sind sehr
anspruchslos.
Ich glaube nicht an einen verantwortungsvollen Finanzmarkt. Ich glaube aber
an den arbeitenden und kunstlerischen Menschen. 

Nur so bekommt man Anrecht auf das Einfrieren. Das nenne ich vernunftiges
Wachstum, mit Focus auf den Schutz der bereits Eingefrorenen :-)

Kuhlmittel ist fur uns eine essentielle(!!!) Angelegenheit. Aber es schenkt
uns auch Zeit. Wieder ein Vorteil gegenuber den ,normalen" Rentensystem,
welches:
- gegen die Zeit
- gegen den Zinseszins
lauft. 

Wir sind klar im Vorteil.

Ich werde gern Mitglied der ersten 3er-Gruppe. Wer will noch? Ich bin 43
Jahre alt, also solltet Ihr auch hochstens um die 35-45 Jahre alt sein.
Damit wir noch 30-40 Jahre 
fur "unseren" Pensionar bezahlen. Wir sollten uns auch jetzt schon darum
kummern, dass dann in den nachsten Jahrzehnten 9 neue Beitragszahler
hinzukommen. 
Jeweils 3 fur uns. Bei denen wird der Beitrag etwas steigen, weil sie
unseren Pensionar mitbezahlen mussen.  


Best greetings
Jens Rabis
Berlin-Germany

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Message #33148
References: <[email protected]>
From: Gerald Monroe <[email protected]>
Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2010 12:42:20 -0600
Subject: Re: CryoNet #33139 - #33144

--0015175ce086662878049868b3ac

Simplifying it : the edema damages neurons enough that they won't restart.
 (nor will a flooded engine, or a jammed machine).  But since biological
enzymes aren't functional near 0 degrees C, neurons have probably not been
able to catalyze the self destructive processes that neurons perform when
they think they are damaged beyond repair.  Hence, if a patient were stored
at near 0 C for 24 hours, there's still a reasonable chance that their brain
contains the information that cryonics tries to preserve.  But it isn't
ideal : ideal cryonics preservation freezes the brain before an hour of cold
ischemia has occurred (before that point CPR and bypass machines are used to
actively prevent ischemia).  The reason this is ideal is that the maximum
chance of survival according to current science would be to put the brain in
state at low temperature that we know is revivable, and then to freeze it
preventing any further biochemical change at all from that start.  Since the
brain is composed of complex molecular structures, even though we cannot
prove for certain that revival is possible, we can show that it is virtually
certain that the information needed to perform a revival has been preserved.

--0015175ce086662878049868b3ac

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Message #33149
From: [email protected]
Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2010 03:05:51 EST
Subject: Scoring Cases

Content-Language: en

From: Gerald Monroe [email protected]_ 
(mailto:[email protected]) 
Date: Mon,  27 Dec 2010 12:42:20 -0600
Subject: Re: CryoNet #33139 - #33144
 
This is a pretty good summary, Gerald. I've interlaced some points that I  
think are important.
 
>>Simplifying it: the edema damages neurons enough that they won't  
restart. (nor will a flooded engine, or a jammed machine).  But since  biological 
enzymes aren't functional near 0 degrees C, neurons have probably not  been 
able to catalyze the self destructive processes that neurons perform when  
they think they are damaged beyond repair.>> 

Edema is  certainly a major factor in compromising cellular viability in 
ischemic and  nonischemic hypothermia, but it isn't the only factor. 
Substrates necessary for  the cells to restart function get used up, free radical 
damage occurs due to  multiple factors (including uncoupled electron transport 
in the mitochondria)  and there is undoubtedly biochemical injury of the 
same kind, if not to the same  degree, as occurs in warm ischemia.
 
Many enzymes have rather abrupt inactivation temperatures; in other words  
they stop working altogether if cooled or heated above a given temperature.  
However, others behave "erratically' or even continue to function as 
predicted  by the Arrhenius equation. To the extent that these enzymes are 
mobile, and  capable of driving chemical reactions, they will continue to do so: 
near 0 deg C  or even far below it. Catalase, the enzyme that decomposes 
hydrogen peroxide, is  active at dry temperature. I found this out a kid by 
preparing a liver  homogenate in 70% v/v glycerol and adding that to a mixture 
of hydrogen peroxide  in 70% v/v glycerol - with both solutions cooled to dry 
ice temperature. Within  a few seconds, fine white foam begins to appear in 
the interface between the two  solutions. That foam is oxygen from the 
decomposing H2O2. This only happens when  a liver homogenate is added to the 
peroxide.So, some enzymes, for good or ill,  will continue to do their duty as 
long as they can diffuse to the substrates  they are configured to act upon.
 
Another problem is "uncoupling' of linked enzyme systems. Enzymes often  
function as part of a complex chain of catalyzed reactions, and if one enzyme 
 drops out, or becomes more or less active than it should be, that can 
result in  the failure of the "system,' or worse, in the production of toxic or 
 metabolically problematic compounds. These compounds can inhibit other 
important  reactions, cause direct injury (such as free radicals species do by 
damaging  cellular molecules), or result in excessive consumption of an 
essential  substrate for energy production...  Most of the enzymes that degrade 
cell  structure, proteases and lipases, are typically sequestered inside 
cells; many,  but not all of them, in organelles called lysosomes. One positive 
effect of  ultraprofound hypothermia (0 to +5 deg C) is that it greatly slows 
rupture of  the lysosomes. For one thing, the lysosomal membranes are 
frozen solid at these  temperatures - as are most other cellular membranes 
(including the organelle and  plasma membranes). Indeed, it may well be the phase 
transition of the lipids in  the membranous structures of cells that provide 
a great deal of the protection  that is "unexpected' on the basis of the 
Arrhenius equation (or the Q10 rule) in  conditions of hypothermia above the 
freezing point of water. 
 
Nonhibernating mammals, such as humans, are made up mostly of saturated  
fats which have a freezing point at or above room temperature. When our cells  
are cooled to a few deg C above freezing, the saturated fats in our cell  
membranes crystallize, and this not only renders these lipids unavailable for 
 metabolism and more resistant to catabolism, it also has profound effects 
on the  many cellular proteins (including enzymes) that are complexed with 
those lipids  *and with the complexing molecules that attach them to the 
lipids*, as well. As  far back as the mid-1960s, it was understood that cooling 
can cause  destabilization of both the protein-lipid complexes and of their 
complexing  molecules, resulting not only in inactivation of enzymes, but in 
some instances,  possibly "inactivation' of the substrate molecules (upon 
which enzymes act), as  well (Ushakov, B., J. Gem PhysioL 44, 518-560 (1964).
 
>>Hence, if a patient were stored at near 0 C for 24 hours, there's  still 
a reasonable chance that their brain contains the information that  cryonics 
tries to preserve.  But it isn't ideal : ideal cryonics  preservation 
freezes the brain before an hour of cold ischemia has occurred  (before that 
point CPR and bypass machines are used to actively prevent  ischemia).  The 
reason this is ideal is that the maximum chance of survival  according to 
current science would be to put the brain in state at low  temperature that we 
know is revivable, and then to freeze it preventing any  further biochemical 
change at all from that start.  Since the brain is  composed of complex 
molecular structures, even though we cannot prove for  certain that revival is 
possible, we can show that it is virtually certain that  the information needed 
to perform a revival has been preserved.>>
 
It is here that I must disagree with you - principally for the *certainty  
*with which you make the statement:
"Since the brain is composed of complex  molecular structures, even though 
we cannot prove for certain that revival is  possible, we can show that it 
is virtually certain that the information needed  to perform a revival has 
been preserved."

I wish that this were so; that it was proven.  But that is not the  case. 
We do not yet know what the "information necessary to perform a revival  is.'
 We are increasingly in a position to make educated guesses, but that is 
not  the same as knowing with proven certainty.  And it is critically 
important  to define what you mean by "revival.' For instance, it is not too 
terribly  uncommon for people to suffer severe head injury that results in 
prolonged  cerebral edema - brain swelling - who go on to "recover,' but with one 
teensy  little problem: their declarative memory is completely wiped. They 
have no  memory of their name, of growing up, of being married or having 
children (if  such was the case) and most of these people never recover their 
declarative  memories. Generally, their procedural memories are intact: they 
know how to  walk, drive a car, read and so on.  Often people so injured 
will undergo  dramatic changes in personality, almost always becoming more, 
rather than less  disinhibited. They may take up profanity, and drink or drugs, 
become sexually  promiscuous, or just generally be more garrulous and 
obnoxious. This is believed  to be due to heavy losses of neurons in the 
prefrontal cortex. 
 
The relevance of such individuals to this discussion is that they raise the 
 question of just WHO exactly survived the accident that caused their brain 
 injury. At what point of memory loss, or personality change, do you stop 
being  you, or become someone else? Or are you just the neuronal circuits 
that generate  your consciousness - and if so, then why is YOUR death such a 
big deal - since  those same circuits will continue to exist in other humans, 
presumably long  after you are dead? In fact, they may well exist in all 
vertebrates! Cryonics is  likely to force the issue of personal identity and 
personal survival in ways  that have previously not been much of an issue, 
either for individuals, or for  society. Cloning of humans is now illegal, but 
it is patently clear that almost  all cryonics patients have sufficiently 
intact nuclear DNA to allow them to be  cloned. 
 
Given that medicine and society currently treat amnestic head injured  
patients who also have profound changes in personality as the SAME person they  
were before the injury, how is that different from a cryopatient who is  "
revived' from a single intact nucleus *and who is not afflicted with the  
frontal neuron loss and accompanying personality alterations that some  
contemporary brain injury patients experience?* Indeed, by cloning criteria, it  is 
possible to begin reviving almost all of today's cryopatients! The 
experiment  has been a success!
 
While admittedly taking a long way to get here, my point is that we do not  
yet understand the neurobiology of memory, learning, or personality. We 
have  some ideas, but they are not proven, and there is plenty of room for the  
possibility that we are doing something with contemporary cryopreservation  
procedures that wipes memory, or degrades it. While this seems unlikely to 
me  under conditions of "good' cryopreservation (and maybe unlikely to you, 
too), as  a scientist, I've learned to be skeptical; and the older I get 
the more  conservatively skeptical I get - and this despite the loss of so 
many frontal  cortex neurons from aging.
 
Mike Darwin


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