CryoNet #33166 - #33170

CryoNet - Sat 1 Jan 2011

    #33166: Re: Cryopreservation since 1990 [benbest]
    #33167: Re: Cryopreservation since 1990 [Luke Parrish]
    #33168: Re: Cryopreservation since 1990 [benbest]
    #33169: most important people to Alcor [david pizer]
    #33170: No Subject [david pizer]

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Message #33166
Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2010 05:52:10 -0500
From: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Cryopreservation since 1990

From: http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/dsp.cgi?msg=33165

[email protected] wrote:

> Brian, Brian, Brian, you ought to know better than to disagree with  
> Mike. Mike Darwin has long developed the annoying habit of always  
> being right.
> So anyone who disagrees with him is automatically always wrong.
>
> Quote from Ben Best in the November-December 2010 issue of Long  
> Life: "in about four months CI has taken-in six new patients. Five  
> of those patients were received on dry ice, only the sixth was  
> perfused."
>
> Any alleged increases in concentrations of cryoprotectants during  
> perfusion are moot, since 83% of CI's patients are currently not  
> being perfused. The blunt fact of the matter is that CI has devolved  
> into a Cryo-cemetery for mostly straight frozen corpses. Mike has  
> commented before on the divorce between Cryonics Science, which is  
> improving, and clinical practice, which is - as Mike has stated, is  
> deteriorating.

Your quote is very misleading, Doug, even though it
is factually correct that all but one of the patients CI
has received in 2010 were straight-frozen.

Four of the six patients that CI received in
2010 were post-mortem sign-ups, CI policy for post-mortem
sign-ups has been that they must be on dry ice for two
weeks while CI ensures that the funding and contracts
will be received in order, that the next-of-kin arranging
for the procedure has full legal authority, and that
there are not going to be other devastating problems.
CI is not encouraging post-mortem sign-ups, we advise
and advise and advise people to make arrangements
in advance, but too many people still only think about
cryonics post-mortem.

Just because CI has received so many post-mortem
sign-ups in 2010 does not necessarily mean that
this is a trend. I certainly hope that it is not.
Nor does it mean that the quality of patient care
has deteriorated for those who have funding and
contracts arranged in advance -- which is the most
misleading implication of your quote and statement.

The quality of care of the CI patient who was
perfused in 2010 is considerably greater than
the quality of care of a CI patient in 1990
who had funding and contracts in place at the
time of legal death. In 1990 a CI patient would
have been perfused through the carotids with
a single glycerol solution and cooled to
liquid nitrogen temperature manually. In 2010
the one CI patient was perfused with vitrification
solution in a stepped manner through both the
carotids and the vertebrals, and the patient
was cooled to liquid nitrogen temperature by a
computer program that followed cooling protocol that
would be much less damaging than linear cooling.
That is greatly superior patient care than
would have been given in 1990.

Concerning the fact that post-mortem sign-ups
have been straight-frozen, it has been essential
that CI keep an arms-length from such patients
until we know that it is safe to accept them.
CI Director Marta Sandberg has been quite
concerned about the quality of care of such
patients, and to address this problem, CI
will now sell and ship glycerol solutions
for post-mortem sign-up cases where the
family is willing and able to arrange
perfusion by a local funeral director.
The formula for preparation is now posted on
the CI website for those who want to have
the solutions more quickly and less
expensively:

http://www.cryonics.org/perfusion/Glycerol.html

   -- Ben Best, President, Cryonics Institute

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Message #33167
References: <[email protected]>
Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2010 07:26:35 -0800 (PST)
From: Luke Parrish <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Cryopreservation since 1990

----- Original Message ----
> Message  #33165
> Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2010 20:55:22 -0800 (PST)
> From: [email protected]
> Subject: Cryopreservation  since 1990
> 
> >   Mike Darwin wrote:
> >> Finally, the  quality of cryopreservation most patients are now receiving
> >> is  dismal and has, on average, deteriorated since 1990.
> >
> > Brian Wowk  wrote:
> > statement is not supportable.  The single greatest change  that has
> > occurred in cryonics since the 1990s is the switch to  higher
> > concentrations of cryoprotectants, which has a dramatic effect  on
> > structural preservation
> >
> Brian, Brian, Brian, you ought to  know better than to disagree with Mike.
> Mike Darwin has long developed the  annoying habit of always being right.
> So anyone who disagrees with him is  automatically always wrong.
> 
> Quote from Ben Best in the November-December  2010 issue of Long Life:
> "in about four months CI has taken-in six new  patients. Five of those patients 
>were recieved on dry ice, only the sixth was  perfused."
> 
> Any alleged increases in concentrations of cryoprotectants  during perfusion 
>are moot, since 83% of CI's patients are currently not being  perfused. The 
>blunt fact of the matter is that CI has devolved into a  Cryo-cemetery for 
>mostly straight frozen corpses. Mike has commented before on  the divorce 
>between Cryonics Science, which is improving, and clinical practice,  which is - 
>as Mike has stated, is deteriorating.

Here's the full quote: "The Cryonics Institute now has 101 patients. After
Curtis Henderson, our 95th patient, CI did not have a new patient for nearly
a full year. But in about four months CI has taken-in six new patients.
Five of those patients were received on dry ice, only the sixth was perfused.
Four of the dry ice patients were post-mortem signups, and the fifth was
signed-up only shortly before her death, while she was in the Intensive
Care Unit (ICU) of a hospital."

In other words, 83% of the patients in that sample were last-minute cases
to begin with. It shouldn't impact the argument for patients who are signed
up in advance of their death and thus have time to arrange perfusion. If you
want to present evidence of actual degradation in clinical practice (rather
than simply extending services to a wider range of clients), you'll need to
find another example.

The ethics of non-ideal cryonics cases are discussed here (by Dr. Wowk):
http://www.alcor.org/Library/html/ethicsnonidealcases.html

If I understand correctly, CI does not even officially provide stabilization
services. They provide storage, and that's it. That the patient who was
signed up in advance was perfused is a positive indication that CI members
are taking initiative to get perfusion when needed.

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Message #33168
Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2010 11:26:19 -0500
From: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Cryopreservation since 1990

Luke Parrish wrote:

> If I understand correctly, CI does not even officially provide  
> stabilization services. They provide storage, and that's it. That  
> the patient who was signed up in advance was perfused is a positive  
> indication that CI members are taking initiative to get perfusion  
> when needed.

Actually, Luke, the typical signed-up Cryonics
Institute (CI) patient is simply packed in ice by
a funeral director and shipped to Michigan for cryoprotectant
perfusion and controlled cool-down in a computer-controlled
cooling box. No extra initiative is required for
CI Members with pre-mortem funding and contracts in place
to be perfused with CI's vitrification solution.

Some CI Members arrange for a funeral director
or friends to do standy. Jack Zinn, CI's 91st
patient, received standby from a team of volunteers:

http://www.cryonics.org/reports/CI91.html

Standby/Stabilization services for CI Members
is an optional extra which some CI Members arrange
on their own. Some CI Members in the United
States arrange by contract with Suspended Animation, Inc.
at an additional cost of about $60,000 on top
of CI's usual fees. As of the end of December, 2010
there are 94 CI Members (including myself) who
have arranged for Standby/Stabilization/Transport
from Suspended Animation, Inc. in addition to
the usual contracts with CI.

  -- Ben Best, President, Cryonics Institute

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Message #33169
Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2010 09:20:20 -0800 (PST)
From: david pizer <[email protected]>
Subject: most important people to Alcor

I see people bashing Darwin lately.  Without him the would be not organization 
like Alcor.   Best to cut him some slack. 
=============

In two minutes and off the top of my head - Here is my opinion of the most 
important people for Alcor in the history of Cryonics.  


First place group

Mike Darwin - got us started, set up original research goals, got lots of 
members, provided energy and ideas.

Jerry Leaf, research and discipline

Robert Ettinger, got the movement started, helped Alcor and all cryonicists all 
the time.
 =====================

Second place group

Saul Kent, get us money.  Big money.  + has done lots of work for cryonics most 
of it helpful.

Steve Bridge helped during the crisis years with ideas and provided confidence.  
Helped create a way to finance the present building.

David Pizer, helped in the crisis years with sound business leadership, Got us 
our present building.  Helped us move and paved the way for Alcor to do business 
in Arizona.  Got us positive press during the several years involved.  
Encouraged lots of donations and bequeaths that came in after I left.

Brenda Peters, helped with enthusiasm, work and lots of members in the growing 
years.
============ 
Next this bunch of people 
===========

The six people who stood up to the government during the Dora Kent crises and 
were taken into custody.
That plus the other members who fought off the government saved our existence 
during that period.

The employees and volunteers who helped us make the move from California to 
Arizona, or else California would have eventually shut us down.

Judge Munoz.  The only government person who ever did anything major for 
cryonics, except for the Mayor of Scottsdale (Herb Drinkwater) who welcomed us 
when we moved.

All the people who have contributed extra money to Alcor over the years.

Who is your pick?

David Pizer

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Message #33170
Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2010 10:18:59 -0800 (PST)
From: david pizer <[email protected]>

Adding to the most important people to Alcor list, I would like to put Hugh 
Hixon in the top category and Marce Johnson in the third category.  I would put 
GF and Brian Wowk in the second or third category.  When I think of more I will 
post them.

This is just my opinion and recollection and I'm sure others will have a 
different order.

I put a lot of importance in the early years because those were the harder days 
to get things going and there were bigger risks to those who were active.

David

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