CryoNet #33178 - #33182

CryoNet - Mon 3 Jan 2011

    #33178: Re: Stephen Girard's trust still exists. [John de Rivaz]
    #33179: more on mortuaries [Ettinger]
    #33180: Re: Girard estate [Perry E. Metzger]
    #33181: Girard Estate [Perry E. Metzger]
    #33182: Re: Just a thought [Chris Manning]

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Message #33178
From: "John de Rivaz" <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Stephen Girard's trust still exists.
Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2011 12:07:28 -0000

Possible reasons this trust may exist and thrive:

1. It was drawn up over a hundred years ago when the body of law was much
smaller
2. The benefactor was the richest man in America at the time and therefore
could have spent more on lawyers that most people could hope to earn in an
entire lifetime.
3. The trust was for entirely charitable purposes. If it had been in favour
of his descendants (the nearest thing to a cryonics revival trust) the
outcome could have been very different.
4. The trust is big enough to pay for the professional fees in running it as
well as providing an income for its charitable purpose.

I am not aware of any cryonics revival trust that is a "money grubbing scam"
for the cryonicists that organise it. However the realities of the level of
professional fees required to start and manage it with the level of legal
safety required may make the system as a whole appear so. Or looking at it
in a less emotional way, such trusts could only be for very rich
cryonicists, beyond even the slightly rich.

There are undoubtedly many professionals getting rich on Mr Girard's trust,
but they are being paid what is presumably the market rate for their
services. The big thing to remember is that the market rate depends more on
the fact that the trust exists as opposed to how much money there is in it.
There must be a figure beyond which these costs remain more or less the
same, and eventually trusts can have so much money in them that they can
grow and/or provide an income that is little diminished by these costs.

There must be a figure at which such a trust would become viable, but I
would be guessing to suggest one. Maybe someone else on this list can
suggest one without so much guesswork. As the same level of urgency is not
present as with cryopreservation fees, the assets for the trust could be
transferred by Last Will and Testament. Any trust organisation that suggests
otherwise could be viewed with suspicion. The patient would lose nothing by
Will transfer, but a pre-mortem transfer would lose him the use of the
assets.

As well as meeting legal requirements, it would need the services of a good
stockbroker to maintain a portfolio which services don't come cheap. When
shares go up he may get a bonus. But when they go down he is unlikely to
give a discount. A selection of mutual funds could be used, but over
centuries even this would require some management. Alternatively, land or
buildings could be considered. However it would be difficult to get rents to
cover maintenance, fees and taxes over centuries. Parts would have to be
sold off, giving rise to more fees and taxes. Speculative tracts of land in
places like Alaska would still require some management, and of course they
could still be worth very little when the patient is revived.

--
Sincerely, John de Rivaz:  http://John.deRivaz.com for websites including
Cryonics Europe, Longevity Report, The Venturists, Porthtowan, Alec Harley
Reeves - inventor, Arthur Bowker - potter, de Rivaz genealogy,  Nomad .. and
more

----- Original Message ----- 
<del>
Message #33175
Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2011 15:38:53 -0700
Subject: Stephen Girard's trust still exists.
From: MARK PLUS <[email protected]>

The people who view cryonics revival trusts as a money grabbing scam
might want to explain why the trust set up by early American financier
and freethinker Stephen Girard still exists after he died in 1831, and
still provides income for the college he established in his will:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Girard

http://www.citytrusts.com/Financial%20Reports/Girard%202010%20FinanciaL%20Statements.pdf
<del>

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Message #33179
From: [email protected]
Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2011 10:31:33 -0500 (EST)
Subject: more on mortuaries

I've lost the text, but I recall that Brian Wowk noted some possible  
problems with use of morticians for standby, including availability of  equipment.
 
Those objections do not seem valid to me, for a very simple reason, namely, 
 that any company like Suspended Animation would face the same problems, 
and  using morticians would in almost all cases be cheaper and quicker and 
more  reliable. 
 
As previously noted, when Mae and I lived in Arizona, we trained and  
equipped the local mortuary people, and paid an annual retainer for an annual  
practice run. 
 
I think Brian specifically said that if an actual bedside standby were  
necessary or desirable, maybe lasting several days, this would preclude use of  
mortuary people. Not so. The mortuaries not only often have sizable staffs, 
but  they always have potential additional staff through cooperation with 
other  morticians in the vicinity. 
 
I acknowledge that some members travel a lot and would find a fixed local  
set-up impractical, but these are in a small minority.
 
Robert Ettinger

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Message #33180
Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2011 11:04:37 -0500
From: "Perry E. Metzger" <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Girard estate
References: <[email protected]>

On 2 Jan 2011 10:00:02 -0000 CryoNet <[email protected]>
wrote:
> Message #33175
> Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2011 15:38:53 -0700
> Subject: Stephen Girard's trust still exists.
> From: MARK PLUS <[email protected]>
> 
> The people who view cryonics revival trusts as a money grabbing scam
> might want to explain why the trust set up by early American
> financier and freethinker Stephen Girard still exists after he died
> in 1831, and still provides income for the college he established
> in his will:
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Girard
> 
> http://www.citytrusts.com/Financial%20Reports/Girard%202010%20FinanciaL%20Statements.pdf

If you had read the second document, you would have learned the
following: the estate of Stephen Girard is administered by
the City of Philadelphia, acting as, it is dryly described, "an
instrumentality of the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania". In other words,
this all works because of state action. I presume the trick is that
the manager of the estate is a government entity and that the funds
are disbursed at the pleasure of said entity. It would presumably be
impossible for an ordinary trust to survive for so long, though one
would clearly have to consult an expert in Pennsylvania trusts and
estates law to know the details. There may also be issues of
grandfathering.

The amount of money held is trivial by current standards -- net
assets being around $200k. Given that the individual in question was
one of the wealthiest people in the world at death, the assets,
around the value of an average house, do not reflect canny management
of the funds. One doubts that the money will last much
longer, not that it would be sufficient to support more than a couple
of children at this point.

Perry
--
Perry E. Metzger		[email protected]

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Message #33181
Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2011 11:08:54 -0500
From: "Perry E. Metzger" <[email protected]>
Subject: Girard Estate

Ugh. I just realized I was off by a factor of 1000 on reading the
KPMG report on the estate -- 200M is clearly a lot of money, it is
not $200,000. My apologies.

However, it still would appear the entire thing functions because it
is essentially a segregated pool of City of Philadelphia assets. It
would also still appear that the management of the funds has not been
extraordinary over the centuries.

--
Perry E. Metzger		[email protected]

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Message #33182
From: "Chris Manning" <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Just a thought
Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2011 20:30:31 +1100

David Stodolsky wrote: We don't have to help them [our ideological opponents] by advertising non-existent problems.

I am nobody important and I am flattered that you think something I write on a cryonics forum might affect government policy. 

The issue isn't whether overpopulation is an issue, but whether future governments may *think* it is. We would help ourselves by being mindful of such future possibilities. 

Any government restriction on revivals would of course only be enforceable within that government's jurisdiction. Patients could be moved to another state/country, a floating habitat or even perhaps another world.
 


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