CryoNet #33188 - #33193

CryoNet - Wed 5 Jan 2011

    #33188: Re: CryoNet #33183 - #33187 [Gerald Monroe]
    #33189: Re: pre-mortem suspension [David Stodolsky]
    #33190: Other Forums [Shannon]
    #33191: Private Forum [Jordan Sparks]
    #33192: Kurzweil Water Woo #2  (CryoNet #33186) [sbharris1]
    #33193: My opinion about DepressedMetabolism.com [=?UTF-8?Q?Jonathan_Despr=C3=A9s?=]

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Message #33188
References: <[email protected]>
From: Gerald Monroe <[email protected]>
Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2011 05:33:01 -0600
Subject: Re: CryoNet #33183 - #33187

--0015175ce014d9941e049903a2af

Jeff Davis :  I thought legal, physician-assisted suicide was available in
Oregon and in the Netherlands.  A simple, logical solution would be for
patients with a diagnosed terminal illness to move to those locations.  An
ideal, near-perfect scenario could be set up if the patient had the money to
fly in the people needed.  An ideal scenario would be : perform the legal
suicide in an operating room with a trained surgeon, perfusionist, and a
cryonics team standing right there.  The attachments for heart-lung
perfusion would already be connected before death!  Waivers waiving autopsy
would already be on file from the medical-examiners office, and/or a court
order would be in the hands of the cryonics team prohibiting interference.
 ALL of the freezing equipment would be on side, including the equipment for
cooling to the temperature of LN-2.  (or intermediate temps to stay above
the glass transition point)  Patient would not leave facility until his or
her body was completely suspended.

It would be entirely practical for a set-up like this to suspend all the
patients to the best standard that is known by current research.

One 'dream' idea would be to have a surgeon remove from the suspended
patient a small sample of the first stage visual cortex, or some other area
of the brain that current neuroscientists understand well and is unlikely to
be related to a person's memories or personality.  (the damage would be
repaired before revival)

The sample would be revived and tested for LTP.  We would take this data to
the courts as proof that the patient *is still legally alive.  *The argument
would be that since the patient's brain tissue IS revivable (could carry the
sample into the courtroom in a life support machine) the patient is not
brain-dead and is not in fact dead.

If it worked, favorable court rulings could make this procedure legal
everywhere in the U.S. as a legitimate medical procedure.  I also think this
would convince many of the skeptics who do not sign up because they don't
believe cryonics works.

Some disagree with this last statement : I have seen comments here that if
we could bring back living breathing humans from cryonics then there would
STILL be a majority of the population who wouldn't want it.

--0015175ce014d9941e049903a2af

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Message #33189
Subject: Re: pre-mortem suspension
From: David Stodolsky <[email protected]>
Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2011 13:54:08 +0100
References: <[email protected]>

On 4 Jan 2011, at 11:00 AM, CryoNet wrote:

> The entire cryonics community -- IN MY VIEW -- should declare
> pre-mortem suspension the optimal practice, designate it the standard
> of care, and campaign vigorously for the legal right to choose same.

A precondition for this is accepting that a person in suspension is alive. Whenever I call them 'patients', people outside of the Movement start laughing. So, good luck. The only thing this would accomplish is firmly cementing the view that cryonicists are kooks. 

This kind of change will only come after cryonics is accepted as a 'burial' practice. See my Post to get an idea of how big a social change this will be:

http://cryonet.org/cgi-bin/dsp.cgi?msg=30455


The best we can hope for at this time is to have the body washout/perfusion done in a hospital immediately after 'clinical death' is certified. However, there is no way this is going to happen without having a cryonicist in a position of influence in the jurisdiction where the hospital is located.

This is one reason I want to form local groups, based upon pay-as-you-go financing. This financing will allow most persons to participate, thus making possible the critical mass needed to exercise influence locally. Depending upon the size of the jurisdiction, I have estimated that as few as 25 families could be adequate. However, this requires careful selection of the jurisdiction for level of religiosity, etc. and financial assistance, etc. to a local activist, who can organize local publicity, meetings, etc. 


dss

David Stodolsky
[email protected]  Skype: davidstodolsky

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Message #33190
References: <[email protected]>
Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2011 11:51:43 -0800 (PST)
From: Shannon <[email protected]>
Subject: Other Forums

--0-737140669-1294170703=:16960

Hello Marta,

One place where Cryonics is discussed in a fairly regular and positive way is 
within the Cryonics sub-forum of the ImmInst 
sub-forums. http://www.imminst.org/forum/

The CI Yahoo group is quite active but of course is for signed CI members. There 
are other yahoo groups related to cryonics such as the "Considering Cryonics" 
group: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/ConsideringCryonics/?yguid=69174212

Also a few open groups that are not region specific:

http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Cryonics_Issues/?yguid=69174212

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Religion_and_Cryonics/?yguid=69174212

None of those sites are currently quite active though, the Venturists have a 
yahoo group as well--again, it is not as active as Cryo-Net--but if someone 
posts questions they are usually able to be answered. Also one can still get "Do 
Not Autopsy" cards from the Venturists main 
site: http://www.venturist.info/services.html

Venturist Discussion Group:

 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Venturists/?yguid=69174212

So Cryonet and ImmInst are the places I know of that are open to anyone, most 
active currently and mainly focus on the science and issues related to cryonics 
compared to complaints or humour.  There of course is also a wealth of 
information at Alcor and CI's main websites, and they too will be able to answer 
questions interested members have. 

http://www.alcor.org/

&

http://www.cryonics.org/

There is a lot of great information about cryonics also at Depressed Metabolism:

http://www.depressedmetabolism.com/


It is hard to feel connected to other cryonicists I think in general especially 
if you live in an isolated area. I live in a city right now (Lubbock TX) where I 
don't know any. When I lived in Austin TX for five years it was lovely as we had 
several cryonicist members, couples and families that would come to meetings 
hosted by Natasha Vita More and I, and her famous Cryo-Feast gatherings! When I 
lived in the UK last year I was able to meet a lot of cryonicists in person that 
I'd only "known" from their writing on-line. When I first became interested in 
cryonics I was lucky to be living in Oregon, and on the West Coast in general so 
I could meet many cryonicists "live".  I've been able to meet a lot by attending 
conferences over the years such as Humanity+, Convergence, SENS, Accelerating 
Change, IEET, CR Society and others. Generally a futurist event will have 
several cryonicists in attendance, even the World Future Society local groups 
and main conference. Right now since I'm in an isolated area I do feel the need 
to get out to conferences in order to network--I also like to take cryonics 
organization information and talk to people who are interested in learning more 
about it, sometimes I run into them later after they've become members--any type 
of science fiction convention, or Skeptical Inquiry event is a great place to 
find people who are interested in cryonics. Not everyone would want to sit at a 
table and talk about cryonics though, or give presentations -- if you are going 
to a conference usually you can ask beforehand at cryo-net, or a site related to 
the conference if there are any cryonicists that would want to meet with you, or 
put up a dinner meeting notice on a bulletin board while at the event.

Beyond meeting people in person, you can form friendships on-line. I find it 
helps to have some friends and family in your life that are interested in 
cryonics and that will support you--but if you don't, you can find support 
on-line. That is one great thing about finding a currently active cryonics group 
or forum, you can discuss issues and share information live-time on-line. 

All the best and Happy New Year to all,

Shannon Vyff-- An author of "The Scientific Conquest of Aging", Author of "21st 
Century Kids", Venturist Director, ImmInst Director, Methuselah Foundation 300 
member, Alcor and CI member
--0-737140669-1294170703=:16960

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Message #33191
From: "Jordan Sparks" <[email protected]>
Subject: Private Forum
Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2011 14:17:42 -0800

I have just started a private forum for cryonicists.
http://www.opendentalsoft.com/cryonicsforum/viewforum.php?f=1

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Message #33192
From: "sbharris1" <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
Subject: Kurzweil Water Woo #2  (CryoNet #33186)
Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2011 21:46:22 -0800

Here is some very effective stuff against the alkaline water internet scams,
much of which Grossman and Kurzweil seem to have fallen for:

http://www.chem1.com/CQ/ionbunk.html

There's even a bit on Fantastic Voyage:
http://www.chem1.com/CQ/ionbunk.html#FV



Ray Kurzweil certainly has the intelligence to learn a little Chem 101
acid-base chemistry. He also could and should have gone to some conventional
scientists (chemists, respiratory physiologists, nephrologists) after being
warned that there was some stuff about pH in the book that was going to be
roundly criticized.

The doctors who study and write about pH problems for a living (of which
there are many) aren't all in the pocket of drug companies. In medical
school, the textbook from which we learned blood gases and acid-base
problems was technically fairly dense (it's probably the worst inorganic
chem that conventional M.D.s have to face in practice), and not at all sexy.
If the guys who wrote it were in the pocket of anybody, who would it have
been? The giant TUMS or citrate laxative conglomerate?

Incidentally, I saw a new magnesium salt on the health food store shelves
just today: magnesium malate. It's being promoted for being a Krebs cycle
intermediate, but of course anybody metabolizing glucose makes all those
things (citrate being one of them). It's not the organic acids per se that
alkalinize you; it's the metals that go along with them and the fact that
the acids must be metabolized to bicarbonate. The malate seems cheaper than
the lactate as a supplement, but didn't look quite as inexpensive as the
citrate. Any of these are usable to raise urine pH, and in reasonable doses
(300 to 400 mg magnesium) they make fine supplements. Just don't overdo it.

BTW, looking at my previous letter, it doesn't look at all clear why taking
a metal chloride (like sodium chloride) should do nothing for your acid/base
status, but taking an alkaline salt (like simple sodium bicarbonate) will.
The answer is although NaCl is neutral, actually sodium chloride intake does
have the same effect of acid intake in some ways, and details and just being
hammered out (see http://ajprenal.physiology.org/content/293/2/F521.full).
This may turn out to be yet another reason why too much sodium chloride is
bad for some people.



However, the easier-to-understand fact is the other fact that the body has
to "pay" for every bit of alkali it neutralizes in food, and it does that by
excreting metal bicarbonate in the urine, or the reaction product of these
with sulfuric or phosphoric acids, which are metal phosphates or sulfates
(both more or less neutral in pH, with the phosphate depending on how it is
titrated).

Remember how this works: in the stomach, "proton pumps" pump HCl into the
stomach and an equivalent amount of bicarbonate HCO3- is released into the
blood. These recombine when bicarbonate-rich pancreatic juice neutralizes
stomach acid. The net result is nothing. But if you neutralize some stomach
acid on your own with a metal salt base like sodium bicarbonate or calcium
carbonate, then extra bicarbonate is effectively released into the blood,
where it cannot get back into the gut from pancreatic juice (which is
secreted to keep pH in the small bowel balanced). So that bicarbonate (along
with the metal that goes with it, if it was absorbed) must be gotten rid of
by the kidneys or deposit in your tissues (in the case of calcium). Your
kidneys get rid of bicarbonate by actively secreting bicarbonate into the
urine, which they can only do if there is a cation to go with it (your
kidneys can't just excrete carbonic acid into your urine-- they can excrete
bicarbonate but a soluble ion like sodium has to go with it). The sodium
bicarbonate neutralizes metabolic acids (phosphoric and sulfuric) and that
brings urine pH up.



This is all well and good, if you don't take more base than you make acid
for. If you are taking magnesium, 500 mg (about 42 meq) of a soluble
magnesium salt like citrate is enough to offset a good fraction of your
metabolic acid load, which is of 50-100 meq a day (American diet).
http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/242975-overview . This is true even
with no calcium antacid. Remember, your urine doesn't actually need to be
alkaline. For reasons discussed below, it's not good if it is.

Remember, every antacid in the world neutralizes your metabolic acids and
raises the pH of your urine, so why buy a water electrolysis machine to do
it? The answer is that there isn't any good reason. There are reasons not to
take antacids of certain types in quantity as health-aids, however. Sodium
bicarbonate presents a sodium load, and too much alkali (of any kind) can
present pH problems if your diet has too much calcium in it. This happens at
intakes of more than 2000 milligrams of calcium as carbonate, which is 100
milliequivalents (meq) or so-- enough to alkalinize your urine even with a
normal metabolic acid load. That can happen to milk drinkers, but is more
likely to happen to calcium antacid users. When too much base in soluble
form is ingested (enough to make your urine actually alkaline, due to
alkaline load), the base load must cause bicarbonate to be secreted by the
kidneys, and they lose sodium and eventually chloride trying to do this.
That leads to low chloride in the body, a low volume state, and highly
absorbed calcium actually precipitating out into tissues because it has no
where else to go in an alkaline environment.



This state was actually called the "milk-alkali syndrome"
http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/123324-overview in the days when milk
and antacids were the mainstays of ulcer treatment. Today it's less often
seen, but the metabolic problems it causes are the same, in theory, any time
so much base is taken that the urine is alkalinized, especially if calcium
supplements of any kind are being also taken. If you take basic magnesium
supplements, you probably will retain enough calcium in your urine that you
won't need to supplement with calcium.



The bottom line for antacids and macromineral supplementation is this: so
long as your kidneys are fine (get basic lab-work) you can take around 300
to 500 mg of magnesium as the citrate, malate or lactate (watch for laxative
effects and cut back if you need to). Take a vitamin D supplement to get
your vitamin D levels in normal range. Take calcium supplements only if
you're trying to correct known calcium bone losses (confirmed by DEXA = DXA
scan) and under treatment by a doctor. That's about as much acid/base care
as you need, unless something else is clearly going wrong with you.



Steve Harris, M.D.

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Message #33193
Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2011 10:24:58 +0100
Subject: My opinion about DepressedMetabolism.com
From: =?UTF-8?Q?Jonathan_Despr=C3=A9s?= <[email protected]>

My opinion about DepressedMetabolism.com:

It should be more: discussion related, critics related, discuss
related, forum related, userssssssss related, community related.

It should be less NEWSPAPER related.

ALL tools are needed in this young, fragile cryonics world.

As we look at it right now, there are not alot of areas/places to
discuss freely about cryonics

When it's big, it's moderated, when it's small, there is no interest,
we need something in between.

Also, the extropian mailing list is way too complicated to use, I dont
like those mailing list software, I also think the extropy mailing
list is not focused on cryonics (it includes super-intelligence
discussion)

--Jon

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