CryoNet #33195 - #33199
CryoNet <[email protected]> 7 Jan 2011 10:00:00 -0000
| Newsgroups | gmane.culture.science.cryogenics |
|---|---|
| Message-ID | <[email protected]> |
CryoNet - Fri 7 Jan 2011
#33195: Re: The arrival of Gunther Stent's "golden age"? [John de Rivaz]
#33196: Re: Selfisf people take low paying nice jobs [RAMole]
#33197: Re: CryoNet #33188 - #33193 [2Arcturus]
#33198: Re: CryoNet #33183 - #33187 [2Arcturus]
#33199: Nanomachines in the brain [=?UTF-8?Q?Jonathan_Despr=C3=A9s?=]
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Message #33195
From: "John de Rivaz" <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: The arrival of Gunther Stent's "golden age"?
Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2011 10:41:58 -0000
This seems a bit tangential to cryonics, but I have posted a comment on the Yahoo Group "Science Maths History"
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/science_math_hist/message/8145
in which I argue that stress at work is more of a problem than "jobs taxes" and avoiding them. Those interested in discussion about this may like to join that group and carry on debating these issues there.
--
Sincerely, John de Rivaz: http://John.deRivaz.com for websites including
Cryonics Europe, Longevity Report, The Venturists, Porthtowan, Alec Harley
Reeves - inventor, Arthur Bowker - potter, de Rivaz genealogy, Nomad .. and
more
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Message #33196
From: [email protected]
Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2011 13:15:35 EST
Subject: Re: Selfisf people take low paying nice jobs
Craig Venter spent his youth as a surfer (and I have the impression may
have used recreational drugs). He then got interested in science and did
remarkable things. People do good science because they get interested, not for
the money. Note that Venter has quite a lot of money but keeps doing
science.
Alan Mole
Message #33194
Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2011 11:53:18 -0700
Subject: The arrival of Gunther Stent's "golden age"?
From: MARK PLUS <[email protected]>
Cryonicists can't take "progress" for granted. Randall Parker
complains about how "Selfish People Take Lower Paying Jobs" for
lifestyle reasons:
Selfish People Take Lower Paying Jobs
http://www.parapundit.com/archives/007797.html
Molecular biologist Gunther Stent wrote about this possibility years ago:
http://stevens.edu/csw/?p=160
> Stent's prognosis for the future was an odd mixture of optimism and
pessimism. He predicted that science, before it ends, might help to solve many
of civilization's most pressing problems. It would eliminate disease and
poverty and provide society with cheap, pollution-free energy, perhaps
through the harnessing of fusion reactions. As we gain more dominion over nature,
however, we may lose what Neitzsche called our "will to power ; we may
become less motivated to pursue further research-especially if such research
has little chance of yielding tangible benefits.
>
> As society becomes more affluent and comfortable, fewer young people may
choose the increasingly difficult path of science or even of the arts.
Many may turn to more hedonistic pursuits, perhaps even abandoning the "real
world for fantasies induced by drugs or electronic devices feeding directly
into the brain. Sooner or later, Stent concluded, progress would "stop
dead in its tracks, leaving the world in a largely static condition that he
called "the new Polynesia. The advent of beatniks and hippies, he surmised,
signaled the beginning of the end of progress and the dawn of the new
Polynesia. He closed his book with the sardonic comment that "millennia of
doing arts and science will finally transform the tragicomedy of life into a
happening.
You have to wonder what Stent would have said about all the time
wasted on social media transmitted through our "electronic devices" in
our mysterious, far-future year 2011.
Mark Plus
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Message #33197
References: <[email protected]>
Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2011 17:06:32 -0800 (PST)
From: 2Arcturus <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: CryoNet #33188 - #33193
--0-15898017-1294362392=:19216
From: Gerald Monroe <[email protected]>
Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2011 05:33:01 -0600
Subject: Re: CryoNet #33183 - #33187
>>>I have seen comments here that if
we could bring back living breathing humans from cryonics then there would
STILL be a majority of the population who wouldn't want it.
I'm afraid I'm one of those people. I don't think demonstrated, reversible human
cryopreservation would change the situation much.
Consider a 90 year old man suffering from a little bit of everything - he
doesn't want to be revived, he wants to be rejuvenated.
Consider a person eaten up with cancer - he doesn't want to be reanimated, he
wants to be cured.
Reversible human cryopreservation by itself lacks the imminent appearance
of cures or treatments for the things people normally die of, and rejuvenation
that could add many years of quality life. And there are many other things that
could be crucial to making cryonics convincing to people, such as an enduring
social milieu and economic prosperity for people with extreme longevity.
But of course, if all these things were present, then ironically cryonics would
also be in danger of being redundant, because most people wouldn't be in much
fear of death. It is only at the historical moment when these things are not
present, but are widely perceived to be imminent, that cryonics might have its
strongest rationale - as no one would want to be (to rephrase Kerry) the last
person to die of natural causes.
I especially think of how the medical community would probably find demonstrated
reversible human cryopreservation a classic 'solution in search of a problem.'
If people are dying of something, it is because they cannot be cured of whatever
it is, so there is no point in suspending them, since why would you ever revive
them? Ethically, the medical community would not be comfortable suspending
people on the unproven promise of future medical advances - how can you make
promises you cannot keep? - plus, especially, why bother if your patients are
perfectly happy 'going to heaven' and accepting their lot as the will of God?
The only medical application of reversible human cryopreservation would probably
be in trauma units, e.g., battlefields, where you did have cures and treatments,
but simply insufficient time to do the treatment or get the patient to the
proper medical facility. Even then, for trauma, very low temperatures would prob
not be helpful as they would interfere with treatment, and the time to reverse
the cryopreservation (if it wasn't almost instantaneous) would prob defeat the
purpose of gaining time to treat.
--0-15898017-1294362392=:19216
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Message #33198
References: <[email protected]>
Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2011 18:24:13 -0800 (PST)
From: 2Arcturus <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: CryoNet #33183 - #33187
--0-1897441125-1294367053=:77026
>>>The entire cryonics community -- IN MY VIEW -- should declare
pre-mortem suspension the optimal practice, designate it the standard
of care, and campaign vigorously for the legal right to choose same.
Best, Jeff Davis
I agree with the sentiment, although I am not sure what the unintended
consequences might be of compaigning vigorously for any new legal right, esp of
this sort. It would prob best be done carefully rather than forcefully.
In addition, in light of all the talk about the dangers of post-mortem delays
and the continuing problems with vitrification -
I would like to chime in with my yearly wish that more attention would be paid
to alternatives to cryonics that might be relevant - e.g., fixation, with or
without cryopreservation (without = + solid polymer embedding), and brain
scanning. With sufficiently high-resolution nondestructive brain scanning, a lot
of problems associated with cryonics might be resolved - e.g., the problems
associated with waiting to an unpredictable moment of death, or waiting until a
neurogenerative disease or condition (e.g., normal aging of the brain) runs its
full course, or battling the biophysics of freezing the incompatible diversity
of human tissue/cell types and the endless problems with adequate perfusion,
etc. etc. It would be truly ironic if it were eventually found out that it would
require the most advanced nanotechnology to *freeze* the human body in such a
way as to make the freezing directly reversible by any reasonable means.
But for those who are a little anxious about the comparison of brain cells to
soap bubbles, I would like to note that under the right circumstances, brain
tissue can be remarkably durable, e.g., 7000 years on the bottom of a Florida
lake (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windover_Archaeological_Site). We just need
to understand how.
--0-1897441125-1294367053=:77026
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Message #33199
Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2011 10:47:39 +0100
Subject: Nanomachines in the brain
From: =?UTF-8?Q?Jonathan_Despr=C3=A9s?= <[email protected]>
Do you know that sometime in the future we will have artificial
nanomachines in the brain that will stimulate our neurons so that we
can live in a perfect virtual world or reality and become what we
want, the god of this world if you want. You will see no difference
between reality and virtuality, you could have a harem, or experience
something you really want, for free. Everything could be anything you
want. Something like the game: Grand Theft Auto. All cars will be
free, women etc..you could live the life of Stalin, Michael Jackson or
Einstein.
--Jon
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