CryoNet #33214 - #33221

CryoNet - Thu 13 Jan 2011

    #33214: Cult Education Forum (do you remember the ebola virus article... [=?UTF-8?Q?Jonathan_Despr=C3=A9s?=]
    #33215: The public perception of cryonics [John de Rivaz]
    #33216: AW:  #33208: Uregent: Attention Cryonicists [M2darwin] [Jens Rabis]
    #33217: One way ticket to mars ...  -130 degrees celsius [Jens Rabis]
    #33218: Re: CryoNet #33209 - #33213 [Freeposity]
    #33219: Re: Urgent: Attention Cryonicists [David Stodolsky]
    #33220: hypertonic saline for brain edema [oberon]
    #33221: Darwin document format, and motivation  [M2darwin]

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Message #33214
Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2011 11:04:39 +0100
Subject: Cult Education Forum (do you remember the ebola virus article...
From: =?UTF-8?Q?Jonathan_Despr=C3=A9s?= <[email protected]>

My experience in the cryonics business was not easy.

But I remember something true about cryonics right now:

3 cryonics traps envisioned by Charles Platt:

Trap #1. "Our organization needs help. If you do your thing instead of
helping us, you will weaken us. If we collapse, you will have nothing.
Therefore, you should NOT COMPETE WITH US." I call this "The Whining
Monopoly Scenario" since the organization seeks to preserve a monopoly
of its market segment by whining about its delicate condition.

Trap #2. "Our organization cares for cryonics patients who must be
protected at all costs. If you criticize our organization or reveal
embarrassing facts, you will empower hostile legislators or others who
will try to shut us down. Therefore, you should say NOTHING NEGATIVE
ABOUT US." I call this "The Perpetual Hostage Scenario," since the
cryonics patients are serving exactly the same role as hostages.

Trap #3. "You'll be dead before you have time to build a new
organization to save yourself." I guess the only answer there would be
to establish your organization as a cult and surround yourself with
young acolytes.

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Message #33215
From: "John de Rivaz" <[email protected]>
Subject: The public perception of cryonics
Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2011 11:37:48 -0000

I think that people know what cryonics is, and what is more they may even consider it to be a medical, rather than funerary, procedure. 

However they rely on their medical advisors for medical advice, and when that advice is to accept their eventual demise they take it. Many patients may not even ask their doctors, they will assume that their advice will be to follow the herd into the fires of the crematorium, or to join the rotting corpses of the graveyard. If cryonics really was a sensible idea, surely everyone else would be doing it. 

To the onlooker of a cremation or burial ceremony, the process is conducted in a timely, well ordered, relaxing environment and with far more sympathy and understanding of the people involved than a hospital admission and discharge. The idea of friends and family rushing about stressing themselves to enable a cryopreservation that may not even work is nothing like as appealing. At the moment, anyone who has even glanced at the arrangements for cryopreservation must realise that it is a battle with powerful groups of people who would either be outright against it, or at least disapproving of it.  

Doctors can persuade their patients to consult specialists after a routine test shows that something is wrong even if the patient is suffering no symptom. That specialist can persuade the patient to undergo tests and procedures that are both unpleasant and disabling to cure the condition that is showing no symptom. They use arguments that suggest that if it is not treated then the patient will show symptoms in the future and even die. Looked at like that, patients' faith in their doctors and surgeons is really quite amazing.

If motivated to do so, that same doctor and specialist could surely persuade patients to make cryonics arrangements, on the grounds that if they don't, eventually they will be annihilated. 

Religious hypotheses about an after life don't come into it, as they could equally apply to the aforementioned stressful period of medical tests followed by surgery, which could possibly be disabling .

--
Sincerely, John de Rivaz:  http://John.deRivaz.com for websites including
Cryonics Europe, Longevity Report, The Venturists, Porthtowan, Alec Harley
Reeves - inventor, Arthur Bowker - potter, de Rivaz genealogy,  Nomad .. and
more

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Message #33216
From: "Jens Rabis" <[email protected]>
Subject: AW:  #33208: Uregent: Attention Cryonicists [M2darwin]
Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2011 14:54:16 +0100

Hi cryonauts,

I do not think it desirable / I have no interest in seeing a large crowd ...
would like to freeze.
In Europe there are no attacks on cryonics, as long as you do not talk about
it.
Starting up a secret organization or aggressive ... is not good .... because
we the already frozen (our weakest members) can not hide.

***

Ich finde es nicht wunschenswert / ich habe keine Interesse daran, dass eine
groBe Menschenmenge ... sich einfrieren mochte.
In Europa gibt es keine Angriffe auf Kryonik, so lange man nicht daruber
redet. 
Eine geheime oder aggressive Organisation zu grunden, ist nicht gut, weil
wir die bereits Eingefrorenen ( unsere schwachsten Mitglieder ) nicht
verstecken konnen.

Best greetings
Jens Rabis
Germany-Berlin


Message #33208
From: [email protected]
Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2011 04:04:01 EST
Subject: Uregent: Attention Cryonicists

Over the past two years cryonics has come under attack in a way that is
unprecedented in its 47 year history. The time has now come for this to be
stopped. I urge you to download the document you will find here 
 

_https://www.yousendit.com/dl?phi_action=app/
orchestrateDownload&rurl=https%253A%252F%252Fwww.yousendit.com%252Ftransfer.
php%253Faction%253Dbatch_downlo
ad%2526batch_id%253DRlRvZUNnQ3RmVFkwTVE9PQ_
(https://www.yousendit.com/dl?phi_action=app/orchestrateDownload&rurl=https%
3A%2F%2Fwww.yousendit.com%2Ftran
sfer.php%3Faction%3Dbatch_download%26batch_id%3DRlRvZUNnQ3RmVFkwTVE9PQ) 
 
and to read it and to disseminate it as widely as possible on the
appropriate Internet and intra-organizational venues. More specific
information  on how you can help with this effort will be forthcoming
shortly.
 
Mike Darwin



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Message #33217
From: "Jens Rabis" <[email protected]>
Subject: One way ticket to mars ...  -130 degrees celsius
Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2011 19:22:26 +0100

Hi Cryonauts,

perhaps an inspiration for you. At the polar caps of Mars be  -130 degrees
Celsius. A few keywords ;-)

Keywords: The white polar caps of Mars consist mainly of frozen carbon
dioxide, so-called dry ice 

http://www.google.de/webhp?hl=de&ie=UTF-8&tl=de&sa=N&tab=Tw#hl=de&source=hp&
q=The+white+polar+caps+of+Mars+consist+mainly+of+frozen+carbon+dioxide%2C+so
-called+dry+ice.&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=&fp=368758262e8e6cb9


Keywords:  One-Way Ticket Mars no return

http://www.google.de/#hl=de&q=One-Way+Ticket+Mars+No+return&aq=&aqi=&aql=&oq
=One-Way+Ticket+Mars+No+return&gs_rfai=&fp=368758262e8e6cb9


*****

vielleicht eine Inspiration fur Euch. An den Polkappen des Mars herrschen -
130 Grad Celsius. Ein paar Stichworte ;-)

Stichworte: Die weiBen Polkappen des Mars bestehen vor allem aus gefrorenem
Kohlendioxid, so genanntem Trockeneis.

http://www.google.de/webhp?hl=de&ie=UTF-8&tl=de&sa=N&tab=Tw#hl=de&q=Die+wei%
C3%9Fen+Polkappen+des+Mars+bestehen+vor+allem+aus+gefrorenem+Kohlendioxid%2C
+so+genanntem+Trockeneis&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=Die+wei%C3%9Fen+Polkappen+des+Mar
s+bestehen+vor+allem+aus+gefrorenem+Kohlendioxid%2C+so+genanntem+Trockeneis&
gs_rfai=&fp=368758262e8e6cb9

Stichworte: One-Way-Ticket zum Mars

http://www.google.de/#hl=de&q=One-Way-Ticket+zum+Mars&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=One-
Way-Ticket+zum+Mars&gs_rfai=&fp=368758262e8e6cb9


Best greetings
Jens Rabis
Germany Berlin

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Message #33218
References: <[email protected]>
Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2011 12:29:56 -0600
Subject: Re: CryoNet #33209 - #33213
From: Freeposity <[email protected]>

On Wed, Jan 12, 2011 at 4:00 AM, CryoNet <[email protected]> wrote:
> From: Charles in Arizona <[email protected]>
>
> Memo to Mike Darwin: Not everyone can read a document in .docx format
> (which you used for your "manifesto"). For wider distribution it might
> be a good idea to use your "Save As" option to save in plain old .doc
> format or even .rtf, or export as a .pdf, which is what you did the
> last time.. Personally I am reluctant to buy a newer version of Word,
> or alternatively to download and install free software such as
> OpenOffice, just to open a .docx file.
>

http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/en/details.aspx?familyid=941b3470-3ae9-4aee-8f43-c6bb74cd1466&displaylang=en

or
http://tinyurl.com/26y3lxd

Microsoft provides a compatability pack free of charge that will read
the new formats in Office 2003.

If you're going to use a URL shortener, please don't use bit.ly  .ly
is Lybia. They make money from the use of their site.


--
Money isn't speech.
A Corporation isn't a person.
http://www.movetoamend.org/

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Message #33219
Subject: Re: Urgent: Attention Cryonicists
From: David Stodolsky <[email protected]>
Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2011 21:38:18 +0100
References: <[email protected]>

On 11 Jan 2011, at 11:00 AM, CryoNet wrote:

> Over the past two years cryonics has come under attack in a way that is  
> unprecedented in its 47 year history. The time has now come for this to be  
> stopped. I urge you to download the document you will find here 

While the analysis offered in this document has significant defects, the conclusion is on the mark. Without structural reforms, cryonics organizations face an uncertain future. This, of course, could lead to disaster for those who have entrusted these organizations with their lives. 

One reason I mention structural reforms is that the need for high quality publications and discussion forums has long been recognized. I have been collaborating on an upgrading of CryoNet, but this effort has been static for some time. This is an indication that volunteer efforts will not do the job, within the current framework. The is but one example of the failure of the Movement to capture valuable content. This failure has also contributed to the growth of 'independent' forums for the discussion of cryonics, such as those mentioned in the above document. Since the capture of content produced by cryonicists could play a crucial role in reconstruction of these persons' personalities, this failure represents not just a public relations disaster, but also negligence toward the underlying 
 goal of cryonics - "Saving lives."

Another reason that I mention structural reforms is because there is a continuing need for an industry association. Such an Association could handle tasks that would benefit the entire Movement that never seem to get done at present. There are economies of scale and many other advantages of such an arrangement. Such an arrangement could provide immediate saving to cryonics organizations by taking over tasks such as public relations, conflict resolution - thereby avoiding massive legal expenses in many cases -, certification, etc. 

If you are willing to serve on the Steering Committee for setting up an industry association, please contact me for the entire draft of this document:


------- Revision -------


International Association of Cryonics Organizations  (IACO)


Purpose: 

This Organization shall serve the Cryonics Industry with a variety of resources ranging from providing backup emergency services, insurance against catastrophic events, mediating contractual matters between companies, defining and codifying standards, both ethical and operational, providing guidelines for making public statements, providing oversight services, inspection services and accreditation and evaluation services for both member companies and non-member companies as requested. This Organization shall represent the various member organizations in Washington, DC  to the appropriate Federal Authorities and Legislators. We shall represent the members as needed in there various state and country capitals on matters regarding both standards and ethics.  We will issue at the appropriate t
 imes press releases to testify in the court of  public opinion on matters that pertain to the ethics and standards of our members.


History: 

Cooperation is seen as important to the growth of the industry. Hence, the resolution of the attendees to the First International Cryonics Summit held in Roseville, Michigan on August 24, 2002, to form this Association of companies and others involved in the provision of human bio-preservation services. Dr. Robert Newport was appointed as temporary Chairman of the Steering Committee for the formation of a professional organization of cryonics companies. 

No action followed the above mentioned Summit. There is now an increasing demand for regulation, as indicated by the Coalition for the Regulation of Cryonics at a new website, which claims it will become active in the Summer of 2011:

http://regulatecryonics.org/

In a statement, the Coalition asks: "When will State and/or Federal lawmakers step up to begin the process of strict regulation of these companies?" Their plans include: "Case presentations involving cryonics companies practicing their unregulated 'science' within licensed healthcare facilities are currently being developed and will be presented soon to several interested associations."

<http://www.imminst.org/forum/topic/39147-coalition-for-the-regulation-of-cryonics/>

It is clear from these statements that the Coalition will not only call for government regulation of cryonics, but also go directly to professional organizations that cryonics organizations require cooperation with in order to facilitate suspensions. It is clear that this development represents a threat to existing and pending suspensions. This effort may be preempted, if self regulation by an independent organization is already operating. The details of such an Organization would best finalized immediately. The Organization should start operation no later than the Summer of 2011. The sooner this can be done, the better the chance that convincing documentation showing that there is no need for external regulation can be generated. 





dss

David Stodolsky
[email protected]  Skype: davidstodolsky

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Message #33220
Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2011 18:16:03 -0800 (PST)
From: [email protected]
Subject: hypertonic saline for brain edema

A number of CI's clinical reports make mention of tissue edema. FYI: In mainstream medicine, injections of hypertonic saline have replaced mannitol, due to its greater efficacy in treating edema. Although saline may not be the optimal stabilization solution, it is already available to funeral directors.

BMC Neurosci. 2010 Dec 10;11:153.
A comparative study on the efficacy of 10% hypertonic saline and equal volume of 20% mannitol in the treatment of experimentally induced cerebral edema in adult rats.
Zeng HK, Wang QS, Deng YY, Jiang WQ, Fang M, Chen CB, Jiang X. Department of Emergency & Critical Care Medicine, Guangdong General Hospital, Guangdong Academy of Medical Sciences, Guangzhou 510080, PR China.
Abstract
BACKGROUND: Hypertonic saline and mannitol are commonly used in the treatment of cerebral edema and elevated intracranial pressure (ICP) at present. In this connection, 10% hypertonic saline (HS) alleviates cerebral edema more effectively than the equal volume of 20% mannitol. However, the exact underlying mechanism for this remains obscure. This study aimed to explore the possible mechanism whereby 10% hypertonic saline can ameliorate cerebral edema more effectively than mannitol.
RESULTS: Adult male Sprague-Dawley (SD) rats were subjected to permanent right-sided middle cerebral artery occlusion (MCAO) and treated with a continuous intravenous infusion of 10% HS, 20% mannitol or D-[1-3H(N)]-mannitol. Brain water content (BWC) as analyzed by wet-to-dry ratios in the ischemic hemisphere of SD rats decreased more significantly after 10% HS treatment compared with 20% mannitol. Concentration of serum Na+ and plasma crystal osmotic pressure of the 10% HS group at 2, 6, 12 and 18 h following permanent MCAO increased significantly when compared with 20% mannitol treated group. Moreover, there was negative correlation between the BWC of the ipsilateral ischemic hemisphere and concentration of serum Na+, plasma crystal osmotic pressure and difference value of concentration 
 of serum Na+ and concentration of brain Na+ in ipsilateral ischemic hemisphere in the 10% HS group at the various time points after MCAO. A remarkable finding was the progressive accumulatio
 n of mannitol in the ischemic brain tissue.
CONCLUSIONS: We conclude that 10% HS is more effective in alleviating cerebral edema than the equal volume of 20% mannitol. This is because 10% HS contributes to establish a higher osmotic gradient across BBB and, furthermore, the progressive accumulation of mannitol in the ischemic brain tissue counteracts its therapeutic efficacy on cerebral edema.
PMID: 21143951
Free text>
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3004923/pdf/1471-2202-11-153.pdf


J Neurosci Nurs. 2008 Dec;40(6):362-8.
Challenging the gold standard: should mannitol remain our first-line defense against intracranial hypertension?
Infanti JL. Hospital of the University of Pennsylvania, Philadelphia, USA.
Abstract
  Mannitol has long been the "gold standard" for treatment of cerebral edema and refractory intracranial hypertension in traumatic brain injury, subarachnoid hemorrhage, and stroke. Studies performed in animals have shown that hypertonic saline (HS), in doses ranging from 3% to 10%, may be more effective than mannitol in treating these populations. Recently, randomized clinical trials have evaluated the efficacy and safety of HS versus mannitol in the treatment of elevated intracranial pressure (ICP). This research has been prompted by mounting concern about the side effects of mannitol, the limited ability to give multiple doses of the drug, and an increased understanding of cerebral physiology. Four studies have compared the use of HS and mannitol in brain-injured populations. These stud
 ies have shown that not only is HS a safe drug (no patients experienced adverse effects), it is also more efficient in reducing ICP. Efficiency is defined as the drug's ability to decrease I
 CP to acceptable levels and to maintain lower ICPs for a longer duration of time. It is important for nurses who administer osmotic diuretics to evaluate and understand the current research to provide educated and appropriate care.
PMID: 19170304

Neurosurgery. 2005 Oct;57(4):727-36; discussion 727-36.
Effects of 23.4% sodium chloride solution in reducing intracranial pressure in patients with traumatic brain injury: a preliminary study.
Ware ML, Nemani VM, Meeker M, Lee C, Morabito DJ, Manley GT. Department of Neurological Surgery, University of California, San Francisco, California 94110, USA.
Abstract
  OBJECTIVE: Mannitol is the standard of care for patients with increased intracranial pressure (ICP), but multiple administrations of mannitol risk renal toxicity and fluid accumulation in the brain parenchyma with consequent worsening of cerebral edema. This preliminary study assessed the safety and efficacy of small-volume injections of 23.4% sodium chloride solution for the treatment of intracranial hypertension in patients with traumatic brain injury who became tolerant to mannitol.
METHODS: We retrospectively reviewed the charts of 13 adult patients with traumatic brain injury who received mannitol and 23.4% sodium chloride independently for the treatment of intracranial hypertension at San Francisco General Hospital between January and October 2003. Charts were reviewed to determine ICP, cerebral perfusion pressure, mean arterial pressure, serum sodium values, and serum osmolarity before and after treatment with 23.4% sodium chloride and mannitol. Complications were noted.
RESULTS: The mean reductions in ICP after treatment were significant for both mannitol (P < 0.001) and hypertonic saline (P < 0.001); there were no significant differences between reductions in ICP when comparing the two agents (P = 0.174). The ICP reduction observed for hypertonic saline was durable, and its mean duration of effect (96 min) was significantly longer than that of mannitol treatment (59 min) (P = 0.016). No complications were associated with treatment with hypertonic saline.
CONCLUSION: This study suggests that 23.4% hypertonic saline is a safe and effective treatment for elevated ICP in patients after traumatic brain injury. These results warrant a rigorous evaluation of its efficacy as compared to mannitol in a prospective randomized controlled trial.
PMID: 16239885


Here rank order of effectiveness was  beta-hydroxybutyrate > glycerine > saline.

Jpn J Pharmacol. 2001 Oct;87(2):143-50.
Effect of beta-hydroxybutyrate, a cerebral function improving agent, on cerebral hypoxia, anoxia and ischemia in mice and rats.
Suzuki M, Suzuki M, Sato K, Dohi S, Sato T, Matsuura A, Hiraide A. Shimizu Research Center, Research and Development Division, Shimizu Pharmaceutical Co., Ltd., Shizuoka, Japan.
Abstract
  Although improving energy metabolism in ischemic brain has been accepted for the treatment of cerebrovascular diseases, administration of glucose, as an energy substrate, would aggravate ischemic brain damage via activating anaerobic glycolysis, which leads to lactate accumulation. Beta-hydroxybutyrate (BHB) is one of the ketone bodies that can be utilized as an energy source during starvation. The purpose of our study was to define the protective effects of BHB on brain damage induced by hypoxia, anoxia and ischemia. The isotonic solution of BHB administered 30 min before the induction of ischemia at doses over 50 mg x kg(-1) x h(-1) showed remarkable protective effects against hypoxia and anoxia. BHB administered immediately after a bilateral carotid artery ligation at a dose of 30 mg 
 x kg(-1) x h(-1) significantly suppressed the elevation of cerebral water and sodium contents as well as maintaining high ATP and low lactate levels. In contrast, glycerin, a hypertonic agen
 t, substantially reduced the water content but did not show any significant effect on other parameters. We demonstrated that BHB, unlike glycerin, when used as an energy substrate in ischemic brain, has protective effects on cerebral hypoxia, anoxia and ischemia-induced metabolic change.
PMID: 11700013
Free text>
http://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/jjp/87/2/143/_pdf

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Message #33221
From: [email protected]
Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2011 22:22:44 EST
Subject: Darwin document format, and motivation 

Content-Language: en

Thanks Charles for the formatting tips. As it is, I usually  post & delete 
2-3 times in the Cryonet Queue trying to get the formatting  'right.' As for 
the URL, the short URL did not work, and regardless of what URL  you post, 
the Cryonet software garbles it up. Having said that, I was able to  verify 
that the 'second URL,' apparently generated by Cryonet, worked for me.  I'm 
sorry it didn't work for some others.
 
The piece was also posted on The Immortality Institute Forum  under the 
cryonics subheading, however, I think that it has subsequently been  removed. 
When a durable URL is available, I will post that link here on  Cryonet.
 
Charles asks, quite reasonably: "Two years ago, when Cold  Filter was far 
more problematic, I recall you opining that resistance was  futile. You made 
a couple of long posts to Ms. Maxim, I think, and then  disappeared. Now, 
apparently, you have changed your mind. Some explanation for  this would be 
useful."
 
I still think, as I did then, that direct resistance in the  form of 
hand-to-hand combat on Cold Filter, or any other non-moderated, or  actively 
hostile to cryonics forum, would be useless. I give the reasons for  that in what 
I have written, but in a nutshell, it simply doesn't work because  liars 
can and will generate endless streams of lies with little effort that  will, 
if answered credibly by the victims of those lies, simply result in the  
exhaustion of those selfsame victims. It's a beautiful and time honored tactic  
which is highly effective. Thus, any defense must be a 'metalevel' defense  
- at least an order of magnitude more sophisticated than the  attack. 
 
That kind of undertaking does not become possible until some  reasonable 
(even if quite small) cross section of the cryonics community becomes  aware 
of the actual cost, or the actual damage being done by these creeps. Even  
now, mostly what you will see is "let it run off you like water off a duck's  
back." Of course, that is easy for people who are only digital ghosts, to 
say.  Let THEM wake up in the morning and find that if their current or 
potential  employers Google them, they will find they are called 'fuck pipes,' 
sexual  deviants, or are labeled as professionally, personally, technically and 
morally  bankrupt.
 
 
I did not write the  Cryonics Manifesto simply out of some 'abstract' 
concern for cryonics, nor  based upon extrapolations from Nazi Germany ;-). While 
both of these things are  valid, they were not the precipitating event. Nor 
was there any concern for  myself regarding these lies. Fact is, I have not 
read "Frozen,' never looked at  Cold Filter unless Finance Director (FD) 
prompted me to (which was very rarely),  and I found out about the Nightline 
program by sitting down and watching it -  something I do almost every night 
I'm home (and here in the US). In  fact, I've had an extraordinarily good 
last 4 years - better than most guys  my age, and I have to confess I've 
given almost no thought to the goings-on that  I just posted so passionately 
about.  
So, what was my  reason? Simple, I recently learned that some of the most 
important people in  cryonics were becoming so demoralized and beaten down by 
these broad-based  attacks on cryonics  that they were thinking of throwing 
in the towel. Perhaps this fact will put the attacks from Maxim, et al.,  
in a different light, because it should now be apparent that without any  
recourse to governments or courts, these creeps were (and arguably still are) 
on  the verge of depriving us of one of our most precious resources; our most 
 competent and fair minded people. And that is only the harm we see. I know 
they  are causing a great deal of additional harm because I am starting to 
get emails  from friends and colleagues in the critical care community 
asking me, "What's  going on?" and worse still, "Is any of this stuff true?" 
That means, inevitably,  that good people are being put off of cryonics, and 
that our credibility and  reputation are suffering. That will in turn 
translate into losses and damage in  every area cryonics.  
That this is  inevitable is not in doubt; Chatsworth had exactly this 
effect, and for the same  reasons in the late 1970s and early 1980s - indeed into 
the mid-1980s. Cryonics  is not a highly credible discipline with a lot of 
PR capital to burn - it  could not be, given the global culture. Any bad 
things said about cryonics will  attach to the already questionable and uneasy 
ideas and feelings  that the majority of the population holds in their heads 
about us. And the  truth is that the world should be uneasy about cryonics 
because the  values we hold are, in fact, antithetical to much of the 
existing order of  things. Abolishing death, or attempting to, is arguably the 
most subversive  thing on the planet. We should be proud of  that. 


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