CryoNet #33233 - #33240

CryoNet - Mon 17 Jan 2011

    #33233: AW: #33222: URL for Call to Action [M2darwin] [Jens Rabis]
    #33234: AW: CryoNet #33232 [Jens Rabis]
    #33235: protestantism & cryonics inextricably linked [un person]
    #33236: Blow the Big Dogwhistle [un person]
    #33237: re: latent heat of fusion [Perry E. Metzger]
    #33238: Aubrey de Grey & Ben Best at Michigan SF Convention [benbest]
    #33239: Re: Glass vs. Crystal transitions [Brian Wowk]
    #33240: Response to Mike Darwin's Manifesto [Melody Maxim]

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The Sun. Jan. 15, 2011 digest of messages #33233 - #33243 apparently
was too large (over 70 KB). I am resending it in two parts. - KQB


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Message #33233
From: "Jens Rabis" <[email protected]>
Subject: AW: #33222: URL for Call to Action [M2darwin]
Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2011 11:14:28 +0100

Hi cryonauts,

the most successful secret organization stories are always(!)  family
stories. Logically, because wealth and power has to grow over generations. 
Unfortunately, the scruples decrease with increasing size. Also internal(!)
killings and drifting in the suicide because of:
 - greed
 - envy
- corruption
- jealousy
 - rituals
 - lust for power
- competing companies in the "family" (Crowd / large groups have no
conscience, only momentum)
- be bored (because you have to do it, although one is interested in
something else or because it inherits and not even established)
- Loneliness (feeling exhausted)
- forced / calculated marriage (not love)

 The individual - the you are, dear reader - is no longer important. The
family becomes virtual / superordinate ... like the state, the military, the
Church, the organization, the Mafia, etc.

 We have the chance, because we:
 - a few are
 - frozen have ever time

our assets to increase - without human internal trouble.  The time is with
us, we can ... more!  
We have something in the hand, not virtual, not dead.  What lives long ...
okee very slowly lives ... our frozen :-) 
Wow, what a peaceful sounds.  You like it?


*****

Die erfolgreichsten Geheimorganisationsgeschichten sind immer(!)
Familiengeschichten. Logisch, weil Reichtum und Macht uber Generationen
wachsen muss. 
Leider sinken die Skrupel mit wachsender GroBe.  Auch interne(!) Morde und
das Treiben in den Selbstmord wegen:
- Gier
- Neid
- Korruption
- Eifersucht
- Ritualen
- Machtgelusten
- konkurrierende Unternehmen der "Familie" (Menschenmassen / groBe Gruppen
haben kein Gewissen, sondern nur Eigendynamik)
- gelangweilt sein (weil man es tun muss, obwohl man sich fur was anderes
interessiert oder weil man es erbte und nicht selbst aufgebaut hat)
- Einsamkeit (wegen sich ausgestoBen fuhlen)
- Zweckheirat (keine Liebe)

Das einzelne(!) Individuum - ja DU, lieber Leser - spielt keine Rolle mehr.
Die Familie wird zu etwas virtuellem / Ubergeordnetem ...  wie der Staat,
das Militar, die Kirche, die Organisation, die Mafia usw. 

Wir haben die Chance, weil wir:
- wenige sind
- eingefroren ewig Zeit haben

unsere Vermogen - ohne menschlichen internen Arger - zu vergroBern. Die Zeit
ist mit uns, we can ... more!  
Wir haben etwas in der Hand. Nicht virtuelles, nichts totes, namlich etwas
was lange lebt ... okeee sehr langsam lebt ... unsere Eingefrorenen :-) 
Wow, wie friedlich sich das anhort. Magst Du es?


Best greetings
Jens Rabis
Germany-Berlin
" The time is with us, we can ... more!  "






Message #33222
From: [email protected]
Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2011 05:42:16 EST
Subject: URL for Call to Action

The URL for the document I posted to the Immortality Institute Forum  is:
 
http://kryodelphi.com/manifesto-v2.3.pdf

Mike  Darwin


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Message #33234
From: "Jens Rabis" <[email protected]>
Subject: AW: CryoNet #33232
Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2011 13:35:10 +0100

Hi cryonauts,


Keyword:  Freezing point depression (misunderstood word because you think up
to, but that does down in temperature)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freezing-point_depression

The school was long ago. Simply put, if you want to cool a large body
quickly, you need something that is colder than ice / ice water. However, it
should be liquid because liquids dissipate heat faster. Better is cold salt
water. I've also read highly concentrated (what?) of salt water with
alcohol. This one creates as -20 degrees Celsius. Please ask specialists.

****

Stichwort: Gefrierpunktserniedrigung (missverstandliches Wort weil man denkt
an rauf, aber das bedeutet runter in der Temperatur)
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gefrierpunktserniedrigung

Die Schule ist lange her. Einfach gesagt, wenn man einen groBes Korper
schnell abkuhlen will, braucht man etwas was kalter ist als Eis / Eiswasser.
Es sollte aber flussig sein, weil Flussigkeiten schneller Warme abfuhren.
Besser ist kuhles Salzwasser, ich habe auch gelesen hochkonzentriertes (wie
hoch?) Salzwasser mit Alkohol. Damit schafft man unter  -20 Grad Celsius.
Bitte fragt Spezialisten. 

Best greetings
Jens Rabis
Germany-Berlin
" The time is with us, we can ... more!  "



Message #33232
From: "Eisab" <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
Subject:   latent heat of fusion
Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2011 21:34:58 -0500

"Despite the control applied to the cooling of cells, most of the water
present will freeze at approximately -2 C to -5 C. The change in state from
liquid to crystalline form results in the release of energy in the form of
heat; this is known as the latent heat of fusion. Warming of the sample
occurs until the equilibrium freezing point is reached, at which temperature
ice continues to form. To minimize the detrimental effects of this
phenomenon, undercooling must be minimized by artificially inducing the
formation of ice. This can be accomplished by seeding the suspension with
ice or some other nucleating agent, or by rapidly dropping the temperature
of the external environment to encourage ice crystal formation."

http://www.nalgenelabware.com/techdata/Technical/cryo.pdf

I  wonder if the latent heat of fusion is a big problem in cryonics.

Basie 

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Message #33235
Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2011 05:01:50 -0800 (PST)
From: un person <[email protected]>
Subject: protestantism & cryonics inextricably linked

on the cold filter/cryonics chat forum, I wrote:
"A cryonics paleofuture as depicted by Mark Plus

so you want to pay people with prize money for coming up with the solutions to the problems that face cryonics, and thus once those problems are solved, cryonics can have real growth, right?

That scenario reminds me of the paleofuture depicted by scifi/futurist buffs decades ago. They told us we would all be taking trips to the moon in our flying cars by the distant, far-off year of 2011. If only we wanted it and invested in it, right?

Same thing you are telling us. But the same obstacles that prevented past paleofuture scenarios are the ones that prevent yours from happening: there is a missing fundamental scientific substrate. Fundamental principles and problems are yet to be discovered and overcome. This will take decades. And what of cryonics in the meantime?

Cryonics needs to retrench, to take cover in the sheltering arms of spirituality, of religion, of protestantism."

And then poster named Fundie replied:

"Why Protestantism? Don't Catholics vastly outnumber Protestants?"


And I responded:

that is a very good question

first, the culture of protestantism is more conducive to cryonics. Take for example one form of protestantism: the seed faith gospel. This is basically a very very very VERY old form of religion. You make an offering, and it is returned to you many fold by the guy up in the sky. Many of the rich tv preachers use this gospel. See for example Robert Tilton (my favorite preacher). But this form of religion has existed since before the dawn of civilization. For example, you leave an offering of food on the steps of the temple of Persephone, and your crops will be good this year. Etc etc etc. An early form of the seed faith doctrine. You plant the seed with your money, and it will grow and return to you with greater benefits to you etc.

The seed faith doctrine has now morphed into a self improvement form of protestantism. Now it is mainly about obtaining concrete improvements in your life. E.g., getting a better car, getting a raise at work etc. Tilton's new ministry is called "Success N Life." And the other seed faith preachers are operating in the same vein. They are offering a gospel that is oriented to practical gains and improvements in one's life.

This particular branch of protestantism has simply tapped into a part of american culture--the culture of commerce, our religion of commerce. Our culture of self improvement. And it is a very practical branch of religion. Cryonics is also practical. A very practical way of achieving immortality. Catholicism is not like that.

2nd, protestantism is all about the SCRIPTURE. The WORD of god.

Protestants are literalists who scrutinize the bible, interpreting over and over the meanings of various parts of it. In fact the primary foundation of the Jehovah's Witnesses form of protestantism is found via the interpretation of a couple of verses in the bible. In fact, some of the same verses that support cryonics.

A cryogospel would be similar to jehovah's witnesses in that it would be based on a novel interpretation of some parts of the bible. The Catholic church is not so much about biblical interpretation. Remember that protestantism itself grew out of the importance of READING the word. That is probably the MAIN thing that caused protestantism to arise in first place--the idea that the word of god in the bible had to BE READ in order to be a good christian. This caused the widespread development of schools. In fact protestantism's edict that all christians must learn to read so that they can read the word of god. This is perhaps THE fundamental aspect of protestantism. Before protestantism literacy was actually RARE. The ability to read was so rare that literate people were considered glamorous.
  In fact the word 'grammar' is derived from 'glamor' because of the rarity of literacy.

So therefore because of the fact that protestantism required one to read in order to be a good christian, literacy became widespread. And because of high literacy rates, science boomed because in order to be a scientist, one must be literate. More scientists, more scientific discoveries. Now you know why the West conquered the world. Now you know why cryonics is even possible. Because of protestantism.

Thus protestantism and cryonics are inextricably linked.

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Message #33236
Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2011 05:06:24 -0800 (PST)
From: un person <[email protected]>
Subject: Blow the Big Dogwhistle

over on cold filter/cryonics chat, Mark Plus wrote:
" You still haven't answered my question.
Response to A cryonics paleofuture as depicted by Mark Plus
How would "religionizing" cryonics work among Americans who don't care much about religion in the first place, namely, the ones who live outside the Third World culture of the American South? "





And I replied:
 The best is ever the enemy of the good.

I just drove across half the country, from the deep south to the rust belt. Beautiful country. Listened to religious radio the entire way, just about. Fascinating stuff. I was raised as a jehovah's witness. I prepared and read sermons aloud to the congregation as a child, so the subject is very familiar to me, even though I am now an atheist.

But I digress. To answer your question, Mark, it is not perfection that we seek; it is instead improvement. Right now we are blowing a miniscule dog whistle. You have heard the common saying "I am playing the world's smallest violin"? Well, we cryonicists have been blowing the world's smallest dogwhistle. Or at least a dogwhistle that is in competition for the world's smallest. Cryonics is nerd-centric. No, wait. That is too large an audience. We are uber-nerd centric. The pool of people that can hear us is a tiny pool. Maybe 30 thousand people in america can hear us. Our language, our subculture, etc, all these things, right now, can only reach about 30000. That is a rough estimate. That is about 1/100th of 1 percent of america. THe other 99.99 percent of adults (not kids) cannot really e
 ven rationally consider cryonics. The idea just sort of bounces off their heads. When asked about cryonics, they may make appropriate sounds, but they really never
 consider it at all.

I am not saying that preaching a cryogospel would reach everyone. But it would reach tens of millions. A cheap form of cryonics, a CI-style form, when combined with a cryogospel, I really think, could give us at least 10 times as many members within 10 years. Have you looked at the revenue streams of these megachurches? In one year they take in more $$ than cryonics has EVER taken in. And it is all make believe. Fantasy.

And I am so so saddened that you would make this error in logic (asking for perfection instead of improvement).

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Message #33237
Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2011 13:32:25 -0500
From: "Perry E. Metzger" <[email protected]>
Subject: re: latent heat of fusion
References: <[email protected]>

> From: "Eisab" <[email protected]>
> References: <[email protected]>
> Subject:   latent heat of fusion
> Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2011 21:34:58 -0500
> 
> "Despite the control applied to the cooling of cells, most of
> the water present will freeze at approximately -2 C to -5 C. The
> change in state from liquid to crystalline form results in the
> release of energy in the form of heat; this is known as the latent
> heat of fusion. Warming of the sample occurs until the equilibrium
> freezing point is reached, at which temperature ice
> continues to form. To minimize the detrimental effects of this
> phenomenon, undercooling must be minimized by artificially
> inducing the formation of ice. This can be accomplished by
> seeding the suspension with ice or some other nucleating
> agent, or by rapidly dropping the temperature of the external
> environment to encourage ice crystal formation."
>
> http://www.nalgenelabware.com/techdata/Technical/cryo.pdf
>
> I  wonder if the latent heat of fusion is a big problem in cryonics.

All substances release heat when they go from a more disordered to a
more ordered state, and require heat to move from a more ordered to a
more disordered state. This is a basic rule of thermodynamics. It is
the reason why energy is required to effect a phase change, such as
moving a system from crystal to liquid or from liquid to gas. (In
fact, there is a basic relationship between the heat the process
requires, the temperature, and the change in entropy of the system: in
an isothermal process, the change in entropy times the absolute
temperature is the energy change in the system. (The formula is a
nearly equivalent integral if the process is not isothermal, but most
phase transitions like this are in practice isothermal.))

When the text you quoted refers to "warming", what they're really
saying is that a system undergoing the phase change "tries" to remain
at the phase transition temperature through the whole change of
phase. For example, quite famously, if you add heat to a liquid that
is reasonably well stirred, you will note that the temperature rises
steadily until you hit the boiling point, at which time the
temperature plateaus at the boiling point. Similar effects are seen in
all phase transitions such as crystallization (aka freezing). This is
not a particularly complicated phenomenon to understand -- the phase
transition itself will consume the heat added to the system or will
produce all the heat removed from the system until the transition is
completed, at which point more heat added goes into raising the
temperature again (or in the case of cooling, the heat removed starts
resulting in lowered temperatures again). If a slightly supercooled
liquid begins to freeze, the temperature can rise, but only to the
freezing point of the substance because of the liberated heat (because
if it got above that, the substance would melt, self-limiting the
process), and that's the precise explanation of the phenomenon
described in your quotation.

In freezing tissues for preservation, cryoprotectants are typically
added to depress the temperature of the phase transition (or to
prevent it by forcing the formation of glasses). As the temperature at
which the phase change drops, so too does the heat involved in the
phase change (see the relationship of entropy, temperature and
enthalpy), so phase changes at depressed temperatures (because of the
addition of cryoprotectants) necessarily involve lower heats of
fusion, and thus less heat needs to be removed for the phase change to
complete itself. Further, for some processes, such as glass
transitions, the difference in entropy between the solid and liquid
forms is not apparent -- no true phase transition happens and no heat
of fusion is involved at all. (This is one reason glass transitions
are not abrupt.)

Perry
--
Perry E. Metzger		[email protected]

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Message #33238
Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2011 14:31:16 -0500
From: [email protected]
Subject: Aubrey de Grey & Ben Best at Michigan SF Convention

On the weekend of January 21-23 Aubrey de Grey
will be the Science Guest of Honor at the
ConFusion science fiction convention held
in the Detroit suburb of Troy, Michgan.

http://cf2011.stilyagi.org/content/science-goh-aubrey-de-grey

Dr. de Grey is scheduled for no less than nine events for
the convention, beginning with a Friday 7pm introduction to
Strategies for Engineered Negligible Senescence (SENS)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategies_for_Engineered_Negligible_Senescence

and ending with a Sunday 11am panel on Transhumanism/Singularity.

I (Ben Best) will be with Dr. de Grey on both the
Transhumanism/Singularity as well as on a cryonics
panel scheduled for Saturday at 1pm. Also on the
cryonics panel will be Dr. Don Kleinsek, who attended
the last Cryonics Institute AGM in September 2010.

http://www.cryonics.org/immortalist/november10/AGM.pdf

Dr. Kleinsek is a stem-cell biotechnologist with
an interest in life extension. He will be giving
a presentation on his work at 2pm on Saturday.
I (Ben Best) will be giving a presentation on
dietary supplements, calorie restriction, and
other life extension practices exclusive of the
SENS-related ones on Saturday at 11am.

http://cf2011.stilyagi.org/content/panels-events-1

    -- Ben Best

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Message #33239
Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2011 12:11:00 -0800
Subject: Re: Glass vs. Crystal transitions
From: Brian Wowk <[email protected]>

> Message #33230
> Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2011 16:51:49 -0500
> From: "Perry E. Metzger" <[email protected]>
>
>> From: [email protected]
> [...]
>> vitrify. A potential problem arises, especially when ice growth
>> inhibiting  molecules are also present, in that such tissues will
>> tend to supercool far below their true freezing point,
>
> One side note here. (I'm sure Mike is aware of this, but others may
> not be.) A uniform idealized substance (and sometimes a uniform
> idealized mixture) can have a single definable freezing point, but
> non-uniform substances do not. Biological tissues and individual cells
> are nearly the definition of a non-uniform substance -- if they were
> uniform, they would not function.

     In the above, Mike's usage of "freezing point" actually referred
to the thermodynamic melting point: the highest temperature at which
ice can stably exist in the solution, and the highest temperature at
which freezing can theoretically begin.  In common speech, freezing
point point and melting point are often used interchangeably, even
though, as you point out, the temperature a solution begins freezing
at can be below its melting point.

>
> I know little about the physical chemistry of glycerol undergoing this
> transition. Are the crystals formed pure water?

      Yes.
>
> The "sentinel" ice balls you describe may fail to grow faster
> precisely because their formation alters nearby concentration of
> glycerol, a self limiting process especially since the formation of
> pure water ice requires energy since it is entropically disfavored. It
> would be interesting to learn if this is true. However, with time, as
> the liquids diffuse, they should grow until the overall concentration
> is sufficient to impede further change. The phenomenon, as you
> describe it, is self limiting even in a slowly cooled solution, which
> is slightly puzzling.

      That's a good guess, but it's not really what's going on.  You
are correct that freezing of water increases the surrounding
cryoprotectant concentration.  However this does not cause ice to grow
as a solid sphere that eventually stops growing.  Freeze-concentration
of cryoprotectants actually causes ice to grow as dendrites, like
branches of a tree.  Freeze-concentration impedes lateral growth of
the dendrites, while the tip continues growing, and occasionally
branches due to instabilities.  So the big sentinel ice balls
describes are not solid crystals, but opaque white fluff balls
consisting of millions of microscopic ice dendrites.  The reason that
the ice balls (their microscopic dendrite tips, really) stop growing
with continued cooling is because of increasing solution viscosity.

>
> That would seem on its surface to be correct, but what limits them to
> a few millimeters?

     The reason that ice balls (specifically, their microscopic
dendrite tips) stop growing with continued cooling is because of
increasing solution viscosity causing ice growth to proceed slower and
slower, and eventually stop.  The effect of increasingly glycerol
concentration on growth rate is indirect by forcing ice growth to be
dendritic.  As a result of dendritic growth, the
increased-concentration glycerol becomes located between dendrite
branches within the ice ball.  The exterior of the ice ball where
dendrite tips continue to grow is virgin solution.  At that exterior,
it is viscosity that eventually stops ice growth.

>
> In particular, can you be sure these are not formed of some sort of
> organized glycerol-h2o crystals or small particles of glassy solid and
> are instead pure water?

       Glycerol and water are not known to form a hydrate.  Crystals
would be water ice.

> I would tend to agree that pure water seems
> most plausible, but mere plausibility isn't enough, and this actually
> may be important. Also, can you be sure the crystals grow no larger
> because they have no time to do so, or could it be because the overall
> concentration of glycerol has gone up enough to impede growth, or for
> some other reason? It seems to me that this would require some
> experimentation.

      This is fairly well understood in Cryobiology.  You can find
references for further reading among the references listed in the
article I'll point to at the end of this message, especially the
papers by Mehl.

>> You
>> can bet whatever "blasted areas" or ice holes were seen  in your
>> 7.5 Molar 1995 canine brains were areas hit by ice that started
>> growing  in a very supercooled state." What I take away from this
>> is that ice will still form and grow extracellularly under
>> conditions where the colligative CPA concentration is very  high
>> and the solution is very viscous. Where nucleation and ice growth
>> occur close to the melting point of the solution (Tm), the ice
>> formed will be 'large mass' ice, and likely mechanically
>> disruptive. Where ice forms well below Tm, it will likely be in
>> microscopic domains that still begin forming (nucleate)  outside of
>> cells and consequently do little damage.

      To make solutions cloudy, the millions of tiny ice crystals
observed to form in supercooled 7.5 glycerol solutions would have to
be bigger than a wavelength of light (at least one micron wide) which
means possibly big enough to damage cells.  I merely observe that if
such crystals do form in some areas after perfusion with vitrification
solutions, they would also have been forming in patients perfused with
high molarity glycerol in the 1990s.

>
> Now, going beyond all that we've discussed up to here, this whole
> topic brings to mind a very basic question: has anyone in the cryonics
> world or cryobiology world done a deep exploration of the physical
> chemistry literature on the formation of glasses at low temperatures?

      I was recently invited to write a review article on this subject.

http://www.21cm.com/pdfs/2010-Thermodynamics.pdf

>
> I'm unsure as to whether we would learn anything valuable by exploring
> that topic in depth, but there is a good chance we would. Knowing what
> things are like in most of science, I suspect that the pchem guys and
> even conventional cryobiology types have never really talked, though
> of course I could be entirely wrong on this.

       There has been collaboration.  A leading expert on the physical
chemistry of glasses, Charles Austen Angell, was coauthor on the paper
that invented the modern approach to cryopreservation by
vitrification.  Another coauthor, Angell's student Doug MacFarlane,
went on to become a leading researcher in the physical chemistry of
vitrification in cryobiology.

---BW

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Message #33240
From: "Melody Maxim" <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
Subject: Response to Mike Darwin's Manifesto
Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2011 21:02:33 -0500

I do not believe anyone who truly knows me would think I fit the definition
of a "sociopath," a "cretin," a "lunatic," a "Nazi," or any of the other
derogatory names, Mike Darwin has been throwing around. The information
presented as factual, (as opposed to items clearly designated as opinion, or
hearsay), on my blog, is accurate, to the best of my knowledge. The fact
that I may agree, on a few points, with the more vitriolic critics of
cryonics activities, does not indicate I agree with them on everything, or
with the way they express themselves.

As far as I know, I am the only person who writes on cryonics forums, who
has actually participated in procedures in which people were cooled to
clinical death, and then revived. How many cryonicists really believe I am
just a mean-spirited, spiteful woman, on some sort of warped personal
vendetta? Isn't it much more likely that I am a professional, with relevant
experience, who is appalled at what I see as a mockery of medical procedures
that have played an important role in my life? I have a cumulative decade of
surgical experience, in conventional medicine, and there is not one
co-worker, past or present, (outside of cryonics), who would describe me as
anything less than professional, ethical and easy to get along with. It's
truly bizarre, to have someone like Mike Darwin refer to me as a sociopath!

To cryonicists, who would like to see something more than promises of the
future, from people who cannot deliver today's technology, I wish you all
well. I hope you will achieve your dream, in spite of Mr. Darwin, and others
like him. Who knows? Maybe it will be an "annus mirabilis," for the cryonics
community.

(With the exception of one sentence, this post is an excerpt from a much
longer post, on my blog, which can be found here:
http://cryomedical.blogspot.com/2011/01/i-do-not-believe-anyone-who-truly-knows.html)

Sincerely,

Melody Maxim 

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