CryoNet #33459 - #33470

CryoNet - Sat 12 Mar 2011

    #33459: Re: CryoNet #33455 [Melody Maxim]
    #33460: #33457: Emulation? [Ettinger] [Vortex Prism]
    #33461: #33458: Uploading [Eric] [Vortex Prism]
    #33462: Re: Emulation? [Ettinger] [Keith Henson]
    #33463: Henson reply [Ettinger]
    #33464: reply to Vortex [Ettinger]
    #33465: Terasem [Ettinger]
    #33466: the most damaging carcinogen is... [oberon]
    #33467: Re: CryoNet #33453 - #33458 [Luke Parrish]
    #33468: Terasem addendum [Ettinger]
    #33469: Personal Identity Challenges [Luke Parrish]
    #33470: I think.. [=?UTF-8?Q?Jonathan_Despr=C3=A9s?=]

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Message #33459
Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2011 14:07:41 +0000 (UTC)
From: Melody Maxim <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: CryoNet #33455

------=_Part_73252_978012243.1299852461086





Luke Parrish: "For those not aware already, the source for the quote regarding 
destroying cryonics was Richie Arnold, a UK bartender with a 
genuine vendetta. It came from the Cult Education Forum, of 
which "melmax" is an active participant and contributor." 



Yes, I'm such an "active member and participant," I've contributed three (rather innocuous) posts, with the sum-total of less than a dozen sentences, to that forum, over the last three months. I believe Richie Arnold's "vendetta" has to do with David Styles' fraudulent activities in the UK, more than anything else. It's too bad people like Saul Kent, Catherine Baldwin, and others, drew Mr. Arnolds' attention, by showing up at Mr. Styles' debut of what appears to have been just another total sham. What were Mr. Styles' qualifications for leading what looked like a European version of Suspended Animation, and how did he manage to garner such interest from the U.S. cryonics organizations? Oh yeah, he holds some sort of leadership positions in the Temple of Vampires and the Church of Satan, (o
 rganizations that much more closely resemble MLM schemes, carried out by overgrown frat-boys, than true "religions"). Maybe the appearance of prominent members of the U.S. cryonics organizat
 ions had something more to do with the uncanny resemblance of Mr. Styles equipment, to that of SA. Regardless, I am not "scheming with Richie Arnold" (or anyone else) to "destroy cryonics." 



Luke Parrish: "Mike 
seems to think there is a credible threat, due mainly to the 
relatively uninformed and apathetic nature of the medical 
community with regards to the ethical and technical requirements 
of cryonics. 
Personally I think there needs to be more of a drive to get 
physicians and medical professionals informed on this." 



Mike seems to think a lot of things, many of which simply are not true. The only thing being threatened, here, is the credibility of people like Mike Darwin, someone who recently proved himself to be deceptive, on this very forum, by intentionally misquoting one of his own posts, in an attempt to cover up a lie . He compounded the situation, with a whole new round of falsehoods, which I will call him on...but not today, and not on this forum. It is Mr. Darwin and some of his peers, in cryonics, who appear to have problems grasping the "ethical and technical requirements" of the (decades old) cannulation and perfusion procedures they have been making a mockery of, for so many years. I agree, whole-heartedly, with Mr. Parrish, that "there needs to be more of a drive to get physicians and med
 ical professionals informed," regarding cryonics. 



Melody Maxim
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Message #33460
Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2011 10:47:07 -0500
Subject: #33457: Emulation? [Ettinger]
From: Vortex Prism <[email protected]>

--20cf303bf838d3a451049e36dfb5

For Robert Ettinger:

>a description of a thing (material object or system) is not

>that thing. A map of a city is not a city. A blueprint of a

>house is not a house, regardless of detail and fidelity.


You are quite right, a description of a thing is just a description. It
could be one word, or 10,000 terabytes. It's what you do with that
description that matters. With a blueprint you can build a house. With a
mind map you can lay down a pattern of neurons and synaptic connections.


>In principle it might seem that, yes, if you study the

>woman sufficiently you will be able to describe her with

>perfect fidelity, atom for atom, and predict her thoughts

>and actions over time. But just a little thought will reveal

>that for the foreseeable future this is a hopeless enterprise.

>One reason is that we don't know, and are unlikely soon

>to know, the basic laws of physics which must govern the

>algorithm. For example, some of the interpretations and

>extensions of quantum physics are the various brands of string
>or M or brane theory, which may involve extra dimensions

>of space or time.

Correct me if I am wrong. What you seem to be saying here is that we will
someday be able to record the exact map of a woman's brain, down to the
individual atoms - but not understand or predict the algorithm(s) that
determine how that mind functions? Your reasons for this conclusion are
references to quantum physics, string theory, and extra dimensions of space
or time?


I'm sorry, but this argument seems totally illogical to me. There is a vast
body of scientific evidence that shows that the essential information is
stored at a much higher level than the quantum realm. In his comprehensive
work, 'Neurobiology', Gordon M. Shephard, M.D., concludes that: "The concept
that brain functions are mediated by cell assemblies and neuronal circuits
has become widely accepted, as will be obvious to the reader of this book,
and most neurobiologists believe that plastic changes at synapses are the
underlying mechanisms of learning and memory."


The brain does what it does, because of its structure. It can't do anything
else. In other words, you supply it with oxygenated blood and it goes to
town.


As a side note:


I think vigorous debate is a good thing, but I've noticed that the
discussions on Cryonet occasionally get personal. That is not my intention.
In particular, I have the utmost respect for you, Dr. Ettinger.. I just
disagree with you on this subject.

--20cf303bf838d3a451049e36dfb5

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Message #33461
Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2011 12:11:04 -0500
Subject: #33458: Uploading [Eric]
From: Vortex Prism <[email protected]>

--90e6ba3fd2831472ba049e380c0b

For Eric,


>This is the kind of nonsense you can expect to get
>with a generation raised on transporters, programming,
>and mathematics without a grounding in logic - an
>inability to distinguish between an abstract and
>a concrete.

Eric, why all the vitriol? You know nothing about me, my background in
logic, my capacity for intellectual abstraction, etc. I'm just trying to
have a civil discussion about the implications of uploading and downloading.


>How about you rephrase all of your uploading
>arguments using more accurate descriptions like,
>"very similar" and see how they sound?

Your main objection seems to hinge on the concepts of "identical  vs. "very
similar" and the fact that "identical  is an abstraction and "very similar 
is a concrete, based in reality. Frankly, I still don't see an issue.
Plastic changes at synapses are the underlying mechanisms of learning and
memory. Reconstructing a "very similar  person --- meaning that the brain
map of synaptic connections is the same, should produce the same thoughts,
feelings, etc.


If you think this is not the case, I would be interested in your arguments.


>What's particularly annoying about a lot of uploaders
>are their attempts to slur non-uploaders with some
>sort of accusation of being "mystical" for thinking
>there's something "magic" about a particular manifestation
>of a pattern - when they're the ones thinking that
>abstracts are something that actually exist and
>have these nifty magic properties in the real world.

Yeah, I should probably have chosen my words more carefully. I can see how
the words "mystical  or "magic  can be a bit of a slur. Sorry about that.


>Unfortunately, each of us is manifested in a particular
>piece of meat. Nothing special or magical about
>it - you could say the same thing about a rock.


Quite true. The question is: What happens when you use technology to create
a "very similar  piece of meat that happens to be a fully functional human
with the same memories and experiences of another fully functional human?

>But if you blow your brains out, well then the universe is
>going to be down one uploading advocate.

Very funny. I can almost feel that hot lead drilling a hole in my temple.

Really though, I would like to know why you are so against the
uploading/downloading concept. What harm is there in bringing new life into
the world? Even if it is not an "identical  copy. After all, we "piece of
meat entities" are not identical from one moment to the next ourselves. The
mind is a dynamic entity. You are not the same person from the night before,
when you wake up the next morning. Although, you are, "very similar .

--90e6ba3fd2831472ba049e380c0b

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Message #33462
Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2011 09:28:47 -0700
Subject: Re: Emulation? [Ettinger]
From: Keith Henson <[email protected]>

On Fri, Mar 11, 2011 at 3:00 AM, [email protected] wrote:

snip

> This does not address the question of whether the attempted emulation would
>  be alive or conscious. It might conceivably be something useful, but it
> wouldn't be an emulation. If you are the original, the"emulation" wouldn't be
>  you.

Bob, perhaps I missed it, but I have not seen any reply from you on
the concept of a completely reversible uploading process.

I can't see any reason it should be more difficult to transfer one
direction than the other.

So you could upload and while in the uploaded state store experience
in your inactive/cold biological brain.

The uploaded brain could warm up the biological brain and seamlessly
transfer function till it was all back in the biological brain.

Comments?

Keith

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Message #33463
From: [email protected]
Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2011 17:39:55 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Henson reply

Replying to Keith Henson's message below:
My point was that an attempted emulation must fail because 
we don't know enough abut the laws of physics to construct a 
realistic algorithm. If you work backwards, 
using an alleged emulation to build a bio brain,
the result would also be unrealistic.
 
Bob
------------
 
X-Message-Number: 4

Foobar.  You apparently are unable to view this message.

Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2011 09:28:47 -0700

Subject: Re: Emulation? [Ettinger]

From: Keith Henson <[email protected]_ 
(mailto:[email protected]) >



On Fri, Mar 11, 2011 at 3:00 AM, [email protected]_ 
(mailto:[email protected])  wrote:



snip



> This does not address the question of whether the attempted emulation 
would

>  be alive or conscious. It might conceivably be something useful, but it

> wouldn't be an emulation. If you are the original, the"emulation" 
wouldn't be

>  you.



Bob, perhaps I missed it, but I have not seen any reply from you on

the concept of a completely reversible uploading process.



I can't see any reason it should be more difficult to transfer one

direction than the other.



So you could upload and while in the uploaded state store experience

in your inactive/cold biological brain.



The uploaded brain could warm up the biological brain and seamlessly

transfer function till it was all back in the biological brain.



Comments?



Keith

    









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Message #33464
From: [email protected]
Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2011 18:04:53 -0500 (EST)
Subject: reply to Vortex

Vortex (below) says my argument fails because some experts think the   
brain operates in the realm of classical physics and that even if (say)  string 
theory proves correct in one of its versions, that would not affect the  
results of uploading/downloading. 
 
This is only a portion of the argument, but something as fundamental and  
far-reaching as extra dimensions cannot fail, it seems to me, to insert  
desiderata into almost any situation.
 
R.E.
------------------
From: Vortex Prism <[email protected]_ (mailto:[email protected]) >

--20cf303bf838d3a451049e36dfb5

For  Robert Ettinger:

>a description of a thing (material object or system)  is not

>that thing. A map of a city is not a city. A blueprint of  a

>house is not a house, regardless of detail and  fidelity.


You are quite right, a description of a thing is just a  description. It
could be one word, or 10,000 terabytes. It's what you do with  that
description that matters. With a blueprint you can build a house. With  a
mind map you can lay down a pattern of neurons and synaptic  connections.


>In principle it might seem that, yes, if you study  the

>woman sufficiently you will be able to describe her  with

>perfect fidelity, atom for atom, and predict her  thoughts

>and actions over time. But just a little thought will  reveal

>that for the foreseeable future this is a hopeless  enterprise.

>One reason is that we don't know, and are unlikely  soon

>to know, the basic laws of physics which must govern  the

>algorithm. For example, some of the interpretations  and

>extensions of quantum physics are the various brands of  string
>or M or brane theory, which may involve extra  dimensions

>of space or time.

Correct me if I am wrong. What  you seem to be saying here is that we will
someday be able to record the  exact map of a woman's brain, down to the
individual atoms - but not  understand or predict the algorithm(s) that
determine how that mind  functions? Your reasons for this conclusion are
references to quantum  physics, string theory, and extra dimensions of space
or time?


I'm  sorry, but this argument seems totally illogical to me. There is a vast
body  of scientific evidence that shows that the essential information is
stored at  a much higher level than the quantum realm. In his comprehensive
work,  'Neurobiology', Gordon M. Shephard, M.D., concludes that: "The 
concept
that  brain functions are mediated by cell assemblies and neuronal circuits
has  become widely accepted, as will be obvious to the reader of this book,
and  most neurobiologists believe that plastic changes at synapses are  the
underlying mechanisms of learning and memory."


The brain does  what it does, because of its structure. It can't do anything
else. In other  words, you supply it with oxygenated blood and it goes to
town.


As  a side note:


I think vigorous debate is a good thing, but I've  noticed that the
discussions on Cryonet occasionally get personal. That is  not my intention.
In particular, I have the utmost respect for you, Dr.  Ettinger.. I just
disagree with you on this  subject.



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Message #33465
From: [email protected]
Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2011 20:07:46 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Terasem

Martine Rothblatt was kind enough to reply to my questions about  Terasem, 
but the reply was not very responsive or enlightening. 
 
I would still like to know how many people are members or actively  
involved, and what has been the growth rate. I still find it troubling that  they  
repeat the mistakes I made with Man into Superman in 1972.  The main lesson 
is that, by and large, people do not want radical change,  especially in 
themselves. They find a future of radical change to be a threat,  not a 
promise. 
 
Martine herself and Terasem promote cryonics, and I believe she has donated 
 generously to Alcor. That's fine, but how much is wasted effort or  
counterproductive? How much more could be done with a realistic stance?
 
Robert Ettinger
 
 
 

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Message #33466
Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2011 18:36:39 -0800 (PST)
From: [email protected]
Subject: the most damaging carcinogen is...

Deuterium?
The field of gerontology is dominated by biochemists. It would be ironic
if the main "cause" of aging or even just cancer were to be found not in
the field of biochemistry, but instead in the discipline of physics.
Experiments with deuterium depleted water (DDW) in both humans and
experimental animals have found that deuterium is highly carcinogenic,
depresses immunity, and increases short term mortality. There is a real
question whether cancer would occur in humans at all, if deuterium were
not present in tap water. Could the fountain of youth be deuterium
depleted water?

Reality check: Much of the research on DDW can be traced back to HYD in
Budapest, Hungary. There have been no long term trials with DDW. A single
longevity study in drosophila flies compared distilled water with 50%
deuterated water. Cancer plays no part in the mortality of these very
short lived flies, which instead typically die of a motor neuron disease
of unknown etiology. There has been no long term test comparing DDW (25
ppm deuterium) with 150 ppm distilled water.
However checkout>>
http://www.preventa.org/

Orv Hetil. 2010 Sep 5;151(36):1455-60.
[Biological significance of naturally occurring deuterium: the antitumor effect of deuterium depletion].
[Article in Hungarian]
Somlyai G, Molnar M, Laskay G, Szabo M, Berkenyi T, Guller I, Kovacs A. HYD Rakkutato es Gyogyszerfejleszto Kft. Budapest Pf. 695 1539.
Abstract
  The concentration of deuterium is about 150 ppm (over 16 mmol/L) in surface water and more than 10 mmol/L in living organisms. Experiments with deuterium depleted water (30+/-5 ppm) revealed that due to D-depletion various tumorous cell lines (PC-3, human prostate, MDA, human breast, HT-29, human colon, M14, human melanoma) required longer time to multiply in vitro. DDW caused tumor regression in xenotransplanted mice (MDA and MCF-7, human breast, PC-3) and induced apoptosis in vitro and in vivo. Deuterium depleted water (25+/-5 ppm) induced complete or partial tumor regression in dogs and cats with spontaneous malignancies, it was registered as anticancer for veterinary use in 1999 (Vetera-DDW-25 A.U.V., 13/99 FVM). The hypodermic preparation of the registered veterinary drug was succes
 sfully tested in clinical investigations. Under the permission of the Hungarian Institute of Pharmacology (No. 5621/40/95) a randomized, double blind controlled, human Phase II clinical tria
 l with prostate cancer was performed, in compliance with GCP principles, which exhibited a significant difference between the control and treated groups with respect to the examined parameters, median survival time and the extension of life-span. We suggest that cells are able to regulate the D/H ratio and the changes in the D/H ratio can trigger certain molecular mechanisms having a key role in cell cycle regulation. We suppose that not the shift in the intracellular pH, but the concomitant increase in the D/H ratio is the real trigger for the cells to enter into S phase. The decrease of D concentration can intervene in the signal transduction pathways thus leading to tumor regression. Deuterium depletion may open new perspectives in cancer treatment and prevention helping to increase th
 e effectiveness of current oncotherapies.
PMID: 20739263
Free text> (but good luck reading  it!)
http://www.akademiai.com/content/xg51631752r0r37g/fulltext.pdf

Integr Cancer Ther. 2008 Sep;7(3):172-81.
A retrospective evaluation of the effects of deuterium depleted water consumption on 4 patients with brain metastases from lung cancer.
Krempels K, Somlyai I, Somlyai G. HYD LLC for Cancer Research and Drug Development, Budapest, Hungary.
Abstract
  HYPOTHESES: Because of the number of sufferers and high mortality rate, the standard care and new therapeutic options in the treatment of brain metastasis from lung cancer are the subject of intense research. A new concept based on the different chemical and physical behavior of protium and deuterium affecting cell signaling and tumor growth has been introduced in the treatment of cancer patients. The aim of this study was to investigate the impact of deuterium depleted water (DDW) consumption in addition to conventional forms of therapy on the survival of lung cancer patients with brain metastasis.
STUDY DESIGN: A series of 4 case histories was retrospectively evaluated. The patients were diagnosed with brain metastasis deriving from a primary lung tumor and started consuming DDW at the time of or after the diagnosis of the brain metastasis, which was inoperable or the surgical intervention did not result in complete regression. The primary objective was survival.
METHODS: The daily water intake of the patients was replaced with DDW, which complemented the conventional forms of treatment. Patients were consuming DDW for at least 3 months. The treatment was continued with DDW of 10 to 15 to 20 ppm lower deuterium (D) content every 1 to 2 months and thus a gradual decrease was maintained in the D-concentration in the patient's body.
RESULTS: DDW consumption integrated into conventional treatments resulted in a survival time of 26.6, 54.6, 21.9, and 33.4 months in the 4 patients, respectively. The brain metastasis of 2 patients showed complete response (CR), whereas partial response (PR) was detected in 1 patient, and the tumor growth was halted (no change or NC) in 1 case. The primary tumor of 2 patients indicated CR, and the lung tumor in 2 patients showed PR.
CONCLUSIONS: DDW was administered as an oral anticancer agent in addition to conventional therapy, and noticeably prolonged the survival time of all 4 lung cancer patients with brain metastasis. We suggest that DDW treatment, when integrated into other forms of cancer treatment, might provide a new therapeutic option.
PMID: 18815148

Rom J Physiol. 1999 Jul-Dec;36(3-4):205-18.
Research concerning the radioprotective and immunostimulating effects of deuterium-depleted water.
Bild W, Stefanescu I, Haulica I, Lupusoru C, Titescu G, Iliescu R, Nastasa V. University of Medicine and Pharmacy Iasi, Department of Physiology.
Abstract
  Mice fed for 15 days with Deuterium-Depleted Water (30 ppm deuterium) had a statistically significant increased survival rate compared with control groups fed with normal distilled water (150 ppm deuterium), after 8.5 Gy irradiation (61% survival in the test group versus 25% in the control group). The hematological picture showed that normal WBC, RBC and platelet counts were maintained in the test groups. Immunological parameters (serum opsonic and bactericidal capacity, bactericidal capacity of the peritoneal macrophages) showed a marked increase in the test groups compared to a severe decrease in the control groups. Auxiliary tests using chemical radiomimetics (hydrochloric embihine) and immunosuppressors (cyclophosphamide) showed a strong protective effect of deuterium-depleted water 
 against the decrease of the leukocyte counts and other immunologic parameters. In conditions of experimental inflammation induced with subcutaneous-implanted pellets, deuterium-depleted wate
 r feeding resulted in a statistically significant increase of the inflammatory response, demonstrated by increased percentages of PMN and lymphocytes in the peripheral blood and the increased phagocytic capacity of the peripheral blood PMN. Experimental infections induced with K. pneumoniae 506 and S. pneumoniae 558 in mice irradiated or treated with cyclophosphamide showed increased, non-specific immunity parameters. All results show a marked intensification of the immune defenses and increased proliferation of the peripheral blood cells, probably accounting for the radioprotective effects.
PMID: 11797936

59% complete tumor regression on  DDW!!

FEBS Lett. 1993 Feb 8;317(1-2):1-4.
Naturally occurring deuterium is essential for the normal growth rate of cells.
Somlyai G, Jancso G, Jakli G, Vass K, Barna B, Lakics V, Gaal T. HYD Ltd. for Research and Development, Budapest, Hungary.
Abstract
  The role of naturally occurring D in living organisms has been examined by using deuterium-depleted water (30-40 ppm D) instead of water containing the natural abundance of D (150 ppm). The deuterium-depleted water significantly decreased the growth rate of the L929 fibroblast cell line, and also inhibited the tumor growth in xenotransplanted mice. Eighty days after transplantation in 10 (59%) out of 17 tumorous mice the tumor, after having grown, regressed and then disappeared. We suggest that the naturally occurring D has a central role in signal transduction involved in cell cycle regulation.
PMID: 8428617

50% deuterium countered the extremely powerful anti-aging effect of temperature reduction in flies. Body temperature reduction in cold blooded animals is, by a large margin, the most powerful means to increase life span. No one really knows why aging is so temperature dependant, and no one knows why deuterium counters this effect. Although a 20 C temperature decrease increased longevity here over four fold may seem an outlandish result, it is actually a typical finding, which is representative of other experiments in cold blooded animals.

Temp Distilled     50%
 C     water    deuterium
30       25        19
25       51        36
20       89        29
10      112         7

Science. 1974 Feb 1;183(123):427-8.
Deuterium oxide effect on temperature-dependent survival in populations of Drosophila melanogaster.
Samis HV, Baird MB, Massie HR.
Abstract
  A comparison of the mean life-spans for populations of Drosophila melanogaster at 10 degrees , 20 degrees , 25 degrees , and 30 degrees C maintained on media prepared with distilled water and with 50 percent deuterium oxide shows that deuteration decreases longevity at all four temperatures. The magnitude of the difference between the mean survival times of populations maintained on deuterated and nondeuterated media is inversely related to temperature between 10 degrees and 30 degrees C.
PMID: 4203023

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Message #33467
Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2011 19:37:43 -0800 (PST)
From: Luke Parrish <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: CryoNet #33453 - #33458

What do doctors and other authorities need to know before they
can be trusted to regulate cryonics?

I don't claim any medical expertise, but from my general
readings on the topic as an interested layman I would say a few
of the most important things are:

1. Ischemic time, particularly warm ischemia, needs to be
minimized. In addition to the damage it does directly, ischemia
also causes perfusion impairment which leads to straight
freezing of tissues.

2. Better cryoprotectants need to be used. As better
cryoprotectants become available, they need to be employed. The
most significant advances in cryonics will be in the area of
reduced cryoprotectant toxicity.

3. Cases need to be monitored and recorded to provide feedback,
since the survival of the patient will not be determinable in
the near term and thus cannot be used directly to measure
success or set goals.

Most of all, there needs to be a paradigm which treats cryonics
patients lives as valuable.

Anyone have any other thoughts to contribute?

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Message #33468
From: [email protected]
Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2011 23:25:43 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Terasem addendum

I forgot the reminder that Terasem, by its endorsement of the nonsense of  
uploading, has suffered by association in the minds of many competent 
people,  and maybe cryonics also. Do a search and convince yourself.
 
R.E.

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Message #33469
Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2011 20:20:46 -0800 (PST)
From: Luke Parrish <[email protected]>
Subject: Personal Identity Challenges

Will the personal identity wars never end?

Some people claim to be concrete objects. Others claim to be
patterns. Both groups appear to think they wake up in the
morning, and are able to "survive" for many years at a time
despite continuously exchanging atoms with their environment.
Both groups are adjusted to the fact that they go through
periods of complete unconsciousness, forget entire sequences of
events, and change in terms of personality and personal
preferences.

I'm of a mixed mind about the matter. Part of me is a pattern,
and part of me is a concrete object. But I'm not saying "part"
in the sense that a cake cut into two pieces is two parts, I
mean something more abstract than that. It would be more
accurate to say that all of me is a pattern, and all of me is a
concrete object -- depending what perspective is being used.
Yes there is a valid perspective from which I am a concrete
object, and yet this concrete object itself is not "the same"
over an extended period of time. My desire for survival hence
seems to come more from the pattern side of me, so to speak.

What does it mean to be a pattern? Well, a pattern is an
abstract, like the color red or a particular temperature. It's
a property of matter, an arrangement of a particular nature
that can be expected to produce particular results under
particular conditions. Those results are not necessarily
deterministic -- nondeterministic patterns can also exist, and
apparently do. For example diffusion in chemistry is an
essentially nondeterministic process which nonetheless follows
particular statistical rules quite rigorously. Thus a
pattern-identical me would not be guaranteed to have the same
thoughts and future as me, even if it were placed in
indistinguishable circumstances. This is particularly the case
when the butterfly effect is taken into consideration, whereby
small changes can have a large impact on chaotic systems.

As cryonicists we don't have much cause to fight even if we
decide to take different sides of the fence here. Cryonics --
if practiced sufficiently well -- preserves the physical object
and the pattern. Yet there are limits to what it can do in both
respects. Part of the physical object (including many millions
of dendrites, neurons, etc.) will be destroyed, which will lead
to the loss of part of the pattern. This is the sobering
reality faced regardless of your philosophical position.

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Message #33470
Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2011 07:00:13 +0100
Subject: I think..
From: =?UTF-8?Q?Jonathan_Despr=C3=A9s?= <[email protected]>

Hi,

My 2 ideas:

1) I think it is possible to have a perfect cryonics technology and we
should work on it before to work on aging or nanomedicine.

2) When we have a perfect cryonics technology then we can have a
better reputation and then it would be more profitable to expand and
colonize in other states/cities, not before.

3) So we should invest in establishing a perfect cryonics technology
first and then invest to expand after a perfect cryonics, that's how
the money should be invested.

21cm.com seem a good company to reach that, to make it happen, so we
should focus on them and make them bigger.

Rate This Message: http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/rate.cgi?msg=33470

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