Re: [Mozile] How could total separation of content (xhtml/xml) and presentation (CSS) be achieved with Mozile?

On Mar 5, 2005, at 22:06, James A.Overton wrote:

   Hi!

> 	Here are my thoughts on the matter.
> 	Bitflux has different goals than Mozile. Mozile would work well for a  
> front end to a CMS, but you would have to figure out the back end  
> yourself. Bitflux covers both these bases.

   I think we need to make e difference between Bitflux CMS and Bitflux  
Editor. The Bitflux Editor is available separately and can also be  
found in other CMS like Apache Lenya for instance. Bitflux CMS consists  
of the PHP-based Cocoon-inspired XML-framework Popoon which works as a  
back-end for the actual Bitflux CMS. And then we have the Bitflux  
editor as a front-end when editing content. I think the Bitflux editor  
kind of fills the same functionality as the "server-side" version of  
Mozile, because it isn't installed as a browser plug-in. Bitflux Editor  
is also partly built on Mozile and seems quite a bit heavier. (Correct  
me if I got something wrong.)

Even though the Bitflux Editor seems to have more functionality than  
Mozile I'd be very interested in working with Mozile because it seems  
simpler to get into. If it can get me as close to what I'm looking for  
as the Bitflux Editor, then why go for something which is an overkill?  
I also like the plug-in idea, it makes the browser a real content  
editor and not only a container for an editor. This kind of brings the  
interface closer to the user.

> 	If you want a WYSIWYG CMS system that separates form from  
> presentation, then Mozile can do a lot of the work. In my opinion, if  
> you really want to separate content from presentation for any  
> semantically rich document, give up on XHTML and use XML + CSS.  
> Mozilla renders XML + CSS nicely.

   I actually was led to believe that Mozile could do only XHTML while  
as Bitflux Editor (and the XUL editor) was able to do XML:
http://lists.bitflux.ch/pipermail/bx-editor-users/2004-September/ 
000138.html

If Mozile does XML out of the box, then what else does the Bitflux  
Editor bring?
And could Mozile be integrated into the Bitflux CMS or Apache Lenya  
just like the Bitflux Editor?

> 	Mozile has a system called MES - Mozile Editing Scheme. See this  
> page: http://mozile.mozdev.org/docs/mozileDocs.html#WhatIsAMES  It  
> should be redesigned to be more powerful, but it works right now. The  
> idea is to extend an XML Schema (or RelaxNG schema) by adding the  
> extra information needed for word processing. This means defining  
> editing commands and the context that they apply to, defining the  
> buttons which activate those commands, etc. You define a MES to suit a  
> particular set of editing tasks, so it can be more structured than a  
> normal word processor. In the future I plan to integrate MES with  
> schemas more tightly, once Mozile has better schema support. I'm not  
> sure if Bitflux has similar features.

   I don't know either, does anybody?
It's funny that these two projects are related but still quite few seem  
to know them both well.

> 	The MES lets you change the attributes of elements (among other  
> things), including the id and class attributes.

   So does this mean that i can only predefine ID:s or classes for the  
user to choose from, or does it mean that I can allow the user to  
assign ID or class attributes of his own to certain elements? If the  
latter would be possible then that would get me quite far.

> If there is a CSS rule for the page which applies to the changed  
> element, then you will see the change immediately. Mozile can't  
> currently edit external CSS stylesheets, but, compared to what it can  
> do already, that's easy. Starting in 0.6.19 you can edit CSS style  
> declarations inside a page, if you want.

   You're talking of inline CSS right?
I've noticed that so I've actually been thinking of that it'd be nice  
to bring this a step further by separating it from the code, that's the  
main point of CSS isn't it? Inline CSS isn't IMHO much better than  
font-tags.

> 	So if you have rich semantic content, use XML. Then use CSS rules on  
> elements, ids, and classes to get your presentation. Its simple, it's  
> flexible, it's standards based, and there are lots of good tools  
> already built to help you out. That's the way I'd do it if I were you,  
> and that's the way I've (slowly) been making Mozile work.
> 	Of course, that's only my opinion, and I may not have understood the  
> goals sufficiently.

   OK, my goal is a bit fuzzy...
You see I'm doing research for my thesis. I'm intending to pick Mozile  
or the Bitflux Editor and use it either with Bitflux CMS, Apache Lenya  
or a simple CMS of my own. What I'd like to research is the  
possibilities of maintaining total separation of content and  
presentation while using a CMS which allows the user to affect the  
presentation (CSS), something which I haven't seen being done yet. I'm  
mostly in the planning state right now, so things are still quite open.  
I just want to make sure I find a good approach before I go any  
further. It's still not sure wether I'm just going to evaluate an  
existing (or some existing) tool(s) abilities or wether I'll/we'll try  
to develop them into a "proof of concept" kind of experiment.

One problem is that my knowledge of XML is still very shallow. I know  
HTML and CSS well, and a bit of PHP and JavaScript too... but not much  
more than that. And it'd sertainly be good to master the things I  
describe in my thesis. :-) I'd love to learn a lot about XML, but the  
problem is that my time is limited. So now you know my situation and  
what I'm looking for and I hope we can find some common interests.

   cheers, Simon

-- 
bx-editor-users mailing list
[email protected]
http://lists.bitflux.ch/cgi-bin/listinfo/bx-editor-users