Re: Fwd: Re: Comparative review of XML editors

Just thought I'd stick my oar in ;).


> > > Mainly because people feel conglomerate is hectic and lost its way.

Think this might be a poor choice to words. To be honest we're moving
far to slowly to be hectic. As for losing the way, I don't think we have
but maybe we've been remiss in communicating where we are and where we
are going. May this is a good opportunity to re-examine where we are and
what we'd like to be achieving.

> > In my view, conglomerate is the most promising document oriented XML
> > editor around.  

I'd have to second that.

> On many occasions I have recommended the the use of Conglomerate. 

I'd say that whilst Conglomerate is aimed at all users, very much
including the non-technical as these are the people who are currently
catered for least by most xml editors. I'd say that Conglomerate as it
stands at the moment is not ready for everyone to use as it is very much
in development and not everyone appreciates what that means.

> The
> responses, after trying it, have always come back in favor of XMLmind.
> Statements I have received during IRC discussions with regard to Conglomerate
> have included some trivial and some major issues:

Feedback always welcome.

> * to slow in opening documents

Yup, not on purpose though ;)

> * over complicates the editing process

Not by design, but maybe by implementation.

> * too many boxes and colors between text distracts me from writing

Possibly, might be due to a poor dispspec or maybe it's just a very
complex and densely tagged document. Not quite sure how to get around
the problem if a doc has something like
<span><span><span><span><span><span><span><span>Some
text</span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span>
That's never going to be nice.

> * conglomerate crashes for no apparent reason losing work, it did it twice
>  and I decided to give it a miss

Yup, still early days

> * its the most stupid app, close and quit both terminate the application when
> all I wanted to do was close the current document

Actually close only terminates the application when the document you are
closing is the last one to be open. Maybe it should ask if you want to
open/create another document or just leave (Though I've never seen
another app to this.)

> I don't like the way I have to open dialogs in order to view or edit
> attributes.

Fair point, attributes should probably be dock-able like tool options in
the gimp.

Cue bad mock-up 
http://www.custommonkey.org/~jeff/files/Screenshot-1.png

> * it does not support basic stuff like entities and we use xinclude and
> xpointer so I can't even read the whole document

Again good point, that I've had problems with myself (Though I've not
found an editor that actually handles this in a way that I'm happy with
either)

This should probably be an option to link to or inline the sub document.
Validation always seem to be a bit tricky with sub documents in most
editors. You can validate the root doc and sub docs but if you just want
to edit the sub doc you can't edit a sub doc and validate that with
reference to the root doc.

> * validation is bad on complex documents

Validation is a very important/complex part of any xml editor and as yet
conglomerate hasn't really been ready to tackle it.

> * tried installing but failed, need to install to many things just to get an
> editor working

Don't think conglomerate is any worse than any other Gnome app, and if
you're using yum/rpm it's pretty darn easy.

> 
> I can't remember all the comments I have had, but people see the editor as
> crippled and poorly designed with little functionality or support for basic
> things. In this view they see it as a poor choice when you have alternatives
> like XMLmind to use.

I think this is a little harsh. It's just early days for Conglomerate.
It's nowhere near as stable as it needs to be and functionally it quite
light but I think the design it good and we're moving the right
direction albeit very slowly.

> 
> Oh yes, one person remarked that the web site was unhelpful and that they saw
> I had written the help, but that it was mostly empty. They ask if I will be
> finishing the document. Puts me in a sticky situation and I have to explain
> the essence of what I am about to tell you next. Just not is so many words
> and not as forthright.
> 
> >From my own experience I can say that I agree with their feelings. In
> addition, back when I planned documenting the editor. I found that, with the
> exception of a few, that people were insensitive and unsupportive of new
> people joining the project and voicing their ideas and problems. Often to the
> point where the views of others where over showed by the religious focus of
> certain members. Often very valid user input and points where totally
> disregarded.  Responses to questions often seemed more like an effort to
> prove a persons technical ability and knowledge that trying to help a person
> understand or solve an issue. Contribution to the project became an argument
> and there was no more fun left.

Can't say I've really noticed this but maybe I'm "insensitive" to the
problem ;)

I don't think we're any worse than any other project. Maybe we need to
try harder. But from my own experience you tend to get back what you put
in.

If people approach the people working on a project in an open manner and
make polite suggestions about how they can work through a problem/idea
with them. Then they'll tend to get a very positive response. However if
all that is posted is a set of demands with no offer of assistance in
meeting them, then the response is bound to be a little more terse. 

> conglomerate.rpm install failed
> rpm output:
> /var/tmp/rpm-tmp.26168: line 2: gconftool-2: command not found
> error: %post(conglomerate-0.9.0-1.1.fc2.rf) scriptlet failed, exit status 127

Suppose conglomerate.rpm should have a dependency on GConf2. However
GConf is a pretty core component (it's required by liggnome) so I'm
actually surprised you can get gnome apps installed without it.
> 
> I did not bother continuing. Firstly I was scared to ask for help for fear of
> being abused on the list because of my ignorance and second because I don't
> need gconftool for anything else. My main desktop is KDE, I have installed
> numerous GNOME apps and have yet to be required to install gconftool.
> everything GNOME installed on my box, "just works" afer installation.
> 
> Please, I realize that my comments and input here may offend and anger
>  certain people. I ask that you take my input and commnets as constructive
>  input. I do not mean to be derogitory or demeaning to any person, I am just
>  trying to give you a perspective of a person looking in to conglomerate as a
>  project from the outside.

Please carry on the comments have valid, and if you stop talking to use
we'll never get better.

> 
> Warm regards,
> --
> Sean Wheller
> Technical Author
> http://www.inwords.co.za
> Registered Linux User #375355
> 
> -------------------------------------------------------

-- 
Jeff Martin

Memetic Engineer

http://www.custommonkey.org/