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On 21Oct2019 16:27, Sven Guckes <[email protected]> wrote:
>* Daniel Goldman <[email protected]> [2019-10-17 08:31]:
>> Sven, or whoever is current admin, do you have a way
>> to automatically download all the archived content?
>> I think it is very useful to save, one way or
>> another we *must* save it, because there are
>> many good examples and insights in the content.
>
>my current SEDUSERS folder contains 3,100+ messages.
>starting June 2005. so there's this backup.
I have messages going back to 2007, in case of gaps.
>> Sven, or whoever is current admin, is there another platform
>> we might migrate to? Or stick with email-only group? Or other
>> preferred course of action? Any other thoughts or reflections?
>
>i had registered the domain sedusers.org exactly for this purpose.
>(by the way, maillists at my ISP (in-berlin.de) run on mailman.)
>the address of the list would simply be [email protected]
>which hopefully is the right name for this.
>
>in fact, i had prepared a transition in 2016..
>but then a few things happened to my health. :-/
>
>one of the open questions of this transition was whether we
>migrate all users onto a new list forcibly - or let them
>decide whether they want to subscribe again to it themselves.
My opinion is that you should pull all the users. I'm sure many lurk. I
lurk a lot. Send a post after the move explaining the new list and
providing an explicit mention of the unsubscription process (in addition
to the mailman footer).
Um, _also_ send a post to the yahoo list describing the move. If one of
my lists which I visit very rarely moved, and dropped lurkers (== me) I
would want to be able to find out where it went months later when I
dropped into its folder.
>the new mailing list would definitely have these features:
>NO "reply-to: list", and NO default footer/signature, and
>NO attachments (also dropping text/html along the way).
>
>the rationale is that a reply-to-list might yield replies
>which are actually meant for private communication, and
>the result is usually from embarassing to catastrophic.
Does this happen often? I would (again, personally) favour
reply-to-list-by-default over personal-reply-by-default. We have
constant problems in the python lists with new people (particularly
people seeking help) replying to individual list members instead of the
list.
Many people do not choose their mailers, or lack a long history with
email to inform their choices; many, particularly new people or those
seeking help, do not even realise that reply-to-list vs reply-to-author
is a thing they can choose, and if they come from forum-like
environments will not realise that this off-list reply-to-author thing
even happens until after the fact, if at all.
I am _strongly_ in favour of automatic reply-to-list-by-default and
anything we can do to make that the default is a good thing IMO.
>besides, your mailer *should* have a command reply-to-list
>(based on the addresses in the List-* headers).
>this is the 3rd millennium, after all.
Yes yes yes. But not the reality for naive users.
>besides, the moderation for first time posters has saved
>this list a TON of spam. and i would keep this as it is.
>thanks to Ruud van Tol for helping me with the moderation.
In favour of this, very useful. And thanks for your efforts here.
>i would also restrict the size of messages to, say, 10KB.
>my statistics over the years have shown
>that 97% of all messages were under 5KB.
>
>this also stops messages with TOFU
>(text over (above), full-quote under).
>as these pile up quite quickly. this has
>worked quite well for quite some other lists.
I can see that this would help. In your experience, aside form rejecting
excessive TOFU, do the rejectees come back with a revised post or do
they vanish? The latter is usually undersirable, and TOFU can be
somewhat addressed by the list members with some agressive editing of
replies. I tend to additionally add a leading editorial on TOFU and the
preferred "inline style" at the top of such replies, as short and
nonagressive as I can, eg:
Hi <person-name>,
Please use the "inline style" in posts to this list, as I am doing in
this post. This places your replies below relevant parts of the quote,
like a conversation, and _discards_ the irrelevant quoted material.
Further discussion of your message appears below...
<inline-trimmed-reply...>
Cheers,
Cameron Simpson <[email protected]>
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<p>On 21Oct2019 16:27, Sven Guckes <[email protected]> wrote:<br>
>* Daniel Goldman <[email protected]> [2019-10-17 08:31]:<br>
>> Sven, or whoever is current admin, do you have a way<br>
>> to automatically download all the archived content?<br>
>> I think it is very useful to save, one way or<br>
>> another we *must* save it, because there are<br>
>> many good examples and insights in the content.<br>
><br>
>my current SEDUSERS folder contains 3,100+ messages.<br>
>starting June 2005. so there's this backup.<br>
<br>
I have messages going back to 2007, in case of gaps.<br>
<br>
>> Sven, or whoever is current admin, is there another platform<br>
>> we might migrate to? Or stick with email-only group? Or other<br>
>> preferred course of action? Any other thoughts or reflections?<br>
><br>
>i had registered the domain sedusers.org exactly for this purpose.<br>
>(by the way, maillists at my ISP (in-berlin.de) run on mailman.)<br>
>the address of the list would simply be [email protected]<br>
>which hopefully is the right name for this.<br>
><br>
>in fact, i had prepared a transition in 2016..<br>
>but then a few things happened to my health. :-/<br>
><br>
>one of the open questions of this transition was whether we<br>
>migrate all users onto a new list forcibly - or let them<br>
>decide whether they want to subscribe again to it themselves.<br>
<br>
My opinion is that you should pull all the users. I'm sure many lurk. I <br>
lurk a lot. Send a post after the move explaining the new list and <br>
providing an explicit mention of the unsubscription process (in addition <br>
to the mailman footer).<br>
<br>
Um, _also_ send a post to the yahoo list describing the move. If one of <br>
my lists which I visit very rarely moved, and dropped lurkers (== me) I <br>
would want to be able to find out where it went months later when I <br>
dropped into its folder.<br>
<br>
>the new mailing list would definitely have these features:<br>
>NO "reply-to: list", and NO default footer/signature, and<br>
>NO attachments (also dropping text/html along the way).<br>
><br>
>the rationale is that a reply-to-list might yield replies<br>
>which are actually meant for private communication, and<br>
>the result is usually from embarassing to catastrophic.<br>
<br>
Does this happen often? I would (again, personally) favour <br>
reply-to-list-by-default over personal-reply-by-default. We have <br>
constant problems in the python lists with new people (particularly <br>
people seeking help) replying to individual list members instead of the <br>
list.<br>
<br>
Many people do not choose their mailers, or lack a long history with <br>
email to inform their choices; many, particularly new people or those <br>
seeking help, do not even realise that reply-to-list vs reply-to-author <br>
is a thing they can choose, and if they come from forum-like <br>
environments will not realise that this off-list reply-to-author thing <br>
even happens until after the fact, if at all.<br>
<br>
I am _strongly_ in favour of automatic reply-to-list-by-default and <br>
anything we can do to make that the default is a good thing IMO.<br>
<br>
>besides, your mailer *should* have a command reply-to-list<br>
>(based on the addresses in the List-* headers).<br>
>this is the 3rd millennium, after all.<br>
<br>
Yes yes yes. But not the reality for naive users.<br>
<br>
>besides, the moderation for first time posters has saved<br>
>this list a TON of spam. and i would keep this as it is.<br>
>thanks to Ruud van Tol for helping me with the moderation.<br>
<br>
In favour of this, very useful. And thanks for your efforts here.<br>
<br>
>i would also restrict the size of messages to, say, 10KB.<br>
>my statistics over the years have shown<br>
>that 97% of all messages were under 5KB.<br>
><br>
>this also stops messages with TOFU<br>
>(text over (above), full-quote under).<br>
>as these pile up quite quickly. this has<br>
>worked quite well for quite some other lists.<br>
<br>
I can see that this would help. In your experience, aside form rejecting <br>
excessive TOFU, do the rejectees come back with a revised post or do <br>
they vanish? The latter is usually undersirable, and TOFU can be <br>
somewhat addressed by the list members with some agressive editing of <br>
replies. I tend to additionally add a leading editorial on TOFU and the <br>
preferred "inline style" at the top of such replies, as short and <br>
nonagressive as I can, eg:<br>
<br>
Hi <person-name>,<br>
<br>
Please use the "inline style" in posts to this list, as I am doing in <br>
this post. This places your replies below relevant parts of the quote, <br>
like a conversation, and _discards_ the irrelevant quoted material.<br>
<br>
Further discussion of your message appears below...<br>
<br>
<inline-trimmed-reply...><br>
<br>
Cheers,<br>
Cameron Simpson <[email protected]><br>
</p>
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