Re: RFE: Make it more convenient to use xml:lang in HTML and XHTML

Great! Made my day hearing that!

Leif

Den 2023-05-04 12:33 skreiv Hussein Shafie:
> We'll try to implement  in the next version of XXE what you call "the
> third alternative" in the email below and explain in greater details
> in your following email.
> 
> We'll do this even if the XInclude standard completely ignores the
> lang attribute. It's either doing this or tolerating having an
> inconsistent XInclude implementation when used in the context of
> (X)HTML documents.
> 
> 
> On 5/4/23 00:39, Leif H Silli wrote:
>> XMLmind XML Editor (XXE) is an - eh - XML editor. But as XHTML is 
>> typically consumed as text/HTML, in practise it is also a HTML editor.
>> 
>> XHTML has always had a 'complicated' relationship to xml:lang. It 
>> seems like everyone really wants to just use lang - or at least use 
>> just one attribute (which would have had to be lang). But - either - 
>> in order to "look good" - or - in order to use XML tooling (which is 
>> rumoured to not support lang), it is customary to put upon oneselves 
>> the burdon of adding both lang and xml:lang. This was recommended back 
>> in 1998 when XHTML 1 was released. And it was also recommended by the 
>> polyglot HTML draft (even if, in my heart, I did not want to require 
>> both attributes).
>> 
>> Context: As for tooling, then we see this in XXE itself; When working 
>> with XInclude, it turns out that @lang is ignored - only xml:lang is 
>> respected and counted. (I might write a separate RFE or BUG about 
>> that.) The consequence being that if, via XInclude, you embed
>> 
>>     <section lang="en" id="sect01" />
>> 
>> then the way XXE implements what XInclude calls 'language fixup' 
>> causes the above element to be embedded as if the language property is 
>> unknown, which (as of XXE 10.4) means that XXE adds xml:lang="" to the 
>> embedded element:
>> 
>>     <section xml:lang="" id="sect01" />
>> 
>> And, if it does not delete the lang attribute, we even get this:
>> 
>>     <section xml:lang="" lang="en" id="sect01" />
>> 
>> Which means that XInclude has created a document which is invalid, 
>> since, when both xml:lang and lang are used, they must be in 
>> agreement. Clearly, this behavior is wrong - on many levels. (A 
>> separate bug about this will probably be written.)
>> 
>> However, this message is not about how XInclude is implemented, but 
>> about making it more convenient to apply xml:lang in XHTML and HTML 
>> documents. And the (current) need to use xml:lang warrants that it 
>> should be simpler.
>> 
>> I see two ways to make it simpler: EITHER add some form of automation: 
>> When someone adds or edits the lang attribute, then xml:langs is added 
>> and/or edited, automatically, in parallell. OR offer xml:lang in the 
>> default list of attributes to select from. (Clearly I prefer the 
>> automated variant.) AND a third option: Decrease the need to use 
>> xml:lang.
>> 
>> So as of today, when authoring HTML or XHTML docuemnts, the lang 
>> attribute is by default visible inside the Attribute editor. Just 
>> click on the attribute name, and add the value. Whereas for xml:lang, 
>> you must either manually type the name of the attribute before you can 
>> select it, or you can change the defaults (on the fly) so that so 
>> called xml attributes are also visible. (But this also makes xml:base 
>> and xml:space visible. )
>> 
>> But the third alternative is what I prefer the most: Decrease the need 
>> to use xml:lang. For instance, by changing the implementation of 
>> XInclude so that lang is treated like xml:lang (and/or so that 
>> xml:lang is kept in sync with lang).
>> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On 5/4/23 01:36, Leif H Silli wrote:
>> The relase notes for XXE 10.4 refers to language fixup in XInclude 
>> 1.1. I must first start be exolaining why we should not give too much 
>> heed to what XInclude 1.0 or 1.1 says about language properties.
>> 
>> XInclude need an update. XInclude 1.1  is a Working Groupn Note from 
>> 2016 [1], while the final version of a Recommended spec, XInclude 1.0, 
>> is from 2006 [2].
>> 
>> The Note from 2016 includes some innovations such as set-xml-id 
>> (though it should probably also have had a set-id attribute as well). 
>> But at the same time, when it comes to language properties, the spec 
>> that it references, IETF RFC 3066, published in 2001, was outdated 
>> when the Note was published: The current best practise for language 
>> tagging, was specified in 2009 - seven years before the Note was 
>> finished [3].
>> 
>> The work on HTML5 begun around 2006, when the first XInclude was 
>> published. In HTML4, the lang attribute behaved different from the 
>> xml:lang attribute. But in HTML5, which implements BCP 47, the 
>> specification of lang has been 'updated' so that lang and xml:lang 
>> work the same (the only difference being that xml:lang only works when 
>> consumed as XML).
>> 
>> So the Working Group Note from 2016 does not pick up all the changes 
>> that happened to HTML and language tagging since 2006. Perhaps that is 
>> the reason why XInclude only talks about xml:lang and not about lang? 
>> XInclude seems to have been created in the spirit of XHTML 1.0, when 
>> the attitude was that we will soon kill text/html.  And so, for 
>> example, XInclude 1.1’s section on Language Fixup from 2016, is 
>> identical with XInclude 1.0’s section on Language Fixup from 2006.
>> 
>> Instead, we have ended up with situation where we try to keep HTML as 
>> XML and HTML as text/html as much as possible in sync. In sync, but 
>> different.
>> 
>> It does therefore not make sense anymore that XInclude only considers 
>> xml:lang and ignore lang.
>> 
>> XMLmind XML Editor version 10.,4 is an exmple of this. Per the relase 
>> notes [4], XXE 10.4 “Made the language fixup of the XInclude 1.1 
>> implementation more conforming to the specification.“. (As I mentioned 
>> above, the language fixup of XInclude 1.1 [5] is identical with the 
>> language fixup of XInclude 1.0 [6], so - sorry to say it, but - the 
>> reference to XInclude 1.1 here, simply gives appearans of being an up 
>> to date reference.)
>> 
>> So what is the change in 'language fixup' that has been added in XXE 
>> 10.4? Here is an example:
>> 
>> When working with XInclude, it turns out that XXE ignores @lang - only 
>> xml:lang is respected and counted. The consequence being that if, via 
>> XInclude, you embed into another element the following element,
>> 
>>    <section lang="en" id="sect01" />
>> 
>> then the way XXE implements 'language fixup' causes the above element 
>> to be embedded as if the language property is unknown, which (as of 
>> XXE 10.4) means that XXE adds xml:lang="" to the embedded element:
>> 
>>    <section xml:lang="" id="sect01" />
>> 
>> And, if it does not delete the lang attribute, we even get this:
>> 
>>    <section xml:lang="" lang="en" id="sect01" />
>> 
>> (Sometimes the @lang is deleted, other times it is not, I am not yet 
>> certain about when what happens - but both things are meaningless.)
>> 
>> Which means that XXE 10.4’s implementation of XInclude has created a 
>> document which is invalid, since, when both xml:lang and lang are 
>> used, they must be in agreement. Also, it has failed to take the 
>> lang="en" attribute into account, thus loosing information. Further 
>> more, if the end result - the resulting document of the xinclusion - 
>> is meant for consumption by text/HTML consumers, then text/HTML 
>> consumers do not understand the xml:lang attribute etc.
>> 
>> Solution: The solution is to treat @lang and xml:lang equally. Thus in 
>> the example above, the result would have become this:
>> 
>>    <section lang="en" id="sect01" />
>> 
>> Or (if you want to consider that not all Xinclude processors - if 
>> anyone at all - handle the lang attribnuite) this:
>> 
>>    <section lang="en" xml:lang="en" id="sect01" />
>> 
>> 
>> [1] https://www.w3.org/TR/xinclude-11/
>> [2] https://www.w3.org/TR/xinclude/
>> [3] https://www.ietf.org/rfc/bcp/bcp47.txt
>> [4] https://xmlmind.com/xmleditor/changes.html#v10.4.0
>> [5] https://www.w3.org/TR/xinclude-11/#language
>> [6] https://www.w3.org/TR/xinclude/#language
> 
> 
> 
> 
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