Re: Law 25B1: Between 25A and 31
"Sven Pran" <[email protected]> Sun, 16 Sep 2018 10:24:21 +0200
| Newsgroups | gmane.games.bridge.laws |
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This is a multipart message in MIME format. --===============0064710255== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0015_01D44DA7.6F085040" Content-Language: no This is a multipart message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0015_01D44DA7.6F085040 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Once LHO calls we leave the territory of changing an intended call (Law = 25B) and enters the territory of calling out of rotation (Law 29). =20 There is no need for clarification other than making it clear that Law = 25A only allows a call out of rotation when it is a substitution of an = unintended call made before partner calls. =20 Fra: Gordon Rainsford <[email protected]>=20 Sendt: s=C3=B8ndag 16. september 2018 09.52 Til: Sven Pran <[email protected]>; 'Volker Walther' = <[email protected]>; [email protected] Emne: RE: [Blml] Law 25B1: Between 25A and 31 =20 The problem with allowing LHO to accept an intentional change of call = after having already called is, how long after would you allow this? = Until the end of the auction? Until the player has bid again on the next = round? Or until partner has called? And on what do you base this view? =20 I think it=E2=80=99s clear that it wasn=E2=80=99t envisaged that LHO = might wish to accept an intentional change that was introduced AFTER LHO = had already called. And if it were allowed what would be allowed to LHO = in the way of changing the first call, considering it was not made OVER = the attempted substitute call? What of other calls that may also have = been made in the auction? =20 I agree with you that I would welcome the WBFLC clarifying the position. =20 Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=3D550986> for = Windows 10 =20 From: Sven Pran <mailto:[email protected]>=20 Sent: 16 September 2018 02:49 To: 'Volker Walther' <mailto:[email protected]> ; [email protected] = <mailto:[email protected]>=20 Subject: Re: [Blml] Law 25B1: Between 25A and 31 =20 Well then - Let us analyze the consequences of the view by Gordon and = EBL TD forum. Obviously we must start with Law 25B1 which says: =20 A substituted call not permitted by A may be accepted by the = offender=E2=80=99s LHO. (It is accepted if LHO calls intentionally over = it.) The first call is then withdrawn, the second call stands and the = auction continues (Law 26 may apply).=20 =20 There can be no doubt that North may accept the substituted 3H bid by = West, and in fact has accepted it by bidding 3S after the substitution. = (His original pass was before the substitution and thus no acceptance of = it.) =20 Did North violate any law with this action? (If so then which law?) =20 If we instead had started with the 3NT bid by West being accepted as = unintended we had been in Law 25A territory.=20 West would then have had the undisputed right to substitute 3H for his = 3NT bid, and North would have the undisputed right to subsequently = withdraw his pass and bid 3S in turn, as Law 25A6 says: =20 If a substitution is allowed the LHO may withdraw any call he made over = the first call. Information from the withdrawn call is authorized to his = side and unauthorized to the opponents. =20 I have no doubt that the intention of WBFLC must have been to let an = offender's LHO enjoy the privilege specified in Law 25A6 also when an = intended call is withdrawn and substituted. =20 =20 And I am convinced that if this situation is brought to the attention of = WBFLC we shall have an immediate clarification to the effect that Law = 25A6 applies also under Law 25B. =20 -----Opprinnelig melding----- Fra: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> = <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > P=C3=A5 vegne = av Volker Walther Sendt: l=C3=B8rdag 15. september 2018 16.48 Til: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>=20 Emne: Re: [Blml] Law 25B1: Between 25A and 31 =20 Hello Sven, I think we nearly agree how to handle the situation, but it = is not the official line. =20 Gordon and the EBL TD forum argued, that we are in law 25 because West = obviously tried to replace his bid. To decide whether we are in 25A or = in 25B, we have to know West's intention. As soon as we decide that it = was an intended replacement, we are stuck to 25B and away from 31. (I do agree to that point) There is no such thing like 25A6 in 25B. So we do not have any speciial = instruction, how to deal with North's first call (the "pass"). Furthermore Gordon told us: Lack of this instruction lead the forum to = the conclusion, that West's intended change of a call may no longer be = accepted by North, when he made a call ("pass") after the replaced bid = (3NT). (I do not agree in this point) So, they argued, the replacement 3H has to be withdrawn. If 3H has to be = withdrawn, we have to withdraw 3S as well. If North was no longer = allowed to accept the change by bidding over it, he became an offending = side when he made the illegal 3S bid. We do have laws for all the = withdrawn bids (16C, 26, 11). They are leading us to a split-score as = described. =20 I do not like the result for several reasons. 1.) It is breaking the basic rule: "Whenever my RHO makes a call, I may = accept it and treat it as regular. There will be no rectification." 2.) It depends on West's hidden intention whether North's 3S bid is = lawful. 3.a) We do not have special rules to deal with an action (e.g. the 3S bid) that is made by North after the infraction. 3.b) Applying general rules 26, 16C and 11 will mostly generate a = split-score as final result, which likely is away from the normal result = without the cancelled calls. =20 I would prefer to avoid the situation by following this line: =20 According to 25A1 North may accept the substitution of 3NT by 3H by = bidding intentionally 3S over 3H - no matter whether he made a bid over = 3NT. In this case 3NT is withdrawn (L25B1) and the following "pass" is = withdrawn as well. 3H was an irregularity. 3S was an action of the non = offending side, Law 11 A applies. Especially North is loosing his rights = to rectify West's irregularity. 16C and 26 do no longer apply to the 3NT = bid. Bidding 3S after 3H is allowed by 25A1. North is not an offending = side for the purposes of 16C and 26 with respect to the withdrawn = "pass". (We have laws, telling us how to deal with this call!) =20 If the TD has been called before North made the 3S bid, the TD should = explain Law 25B, especially consequences of accepting the 3H bid by = making a call over it as above, according to 9B1(c). He will also have = to tell that North may not accept the replacement. If he does so, we = have the usual rectifications for the 3H. =20 Following this line we have have established the principle from 1.) and = have consistent rulings in 25A, 27, 31 and 25B. =20 =20 Your way to handle the situation as either 25A , or 31 and 27 leads to a = similar result. My impression is that you try do bend the law to save = the basic principle 1). =20 But we both are not not in accordance with Gordons and the forums line. =20 Volker =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 Am 14.09.2018 um 23:48 schrieb Sven Pran: >=20 >=20 > I don't understand this: >=20 > Which Law(s) does the TD apply after stating the facts: Law 25A, Law=20 > 25B, Law 27A or Law 29A? (Other?) >=20 > He may (incorrectly) apply Law25A (Unintended Call), or (correctly) = apply Law 25B (Call Intended), or Laws 27A1 and 29A (insufficient bid = out of turn at partner's turn to call).=20 >=20 > In either case North has with his 3S bid accepted the 3H bid by West, = the auction continues from this 3S bid and there is no further = rectification. >=20 > On what ground (which Law?) do you state "3H and 3S are withdrawn".=20 >=20 > When you state that E and W both passes is this a voluntary action or=20 > a rectification ordered by the TD (Which Law?) >=20 > I believe you have overlooked Law 25A6 when you state that there is a = lead-penalty against South? >=20 > -----Opprinnelig melding----- > Fra: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> = <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > P=C3=A5 vegne = av=20 > Volker Walther > Sendt: fredag 14. september 2018 21.08 > Til: Gordon Rainsford <[email protected] = <mailto:[email protected]> > > Kopi: BLML <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > > Emne: ***SPAM*** Re: [Blml] Law 25B1: Between 25A and 31 >=20 > The original description arouse from a discussion between some TDs. IT = was no real case. >=20 > To make the last question more precise lets look at the following = hypothetical case: >=20 > Dealer: W > Vul.: E/W >=20 > W N E S > 2NT P 3T(a) P (a) Puppet-Stayman > 3NT* p * not alerted, meant to show H >=20 > West replaces swiftly 3NT by 3H, afterwards North replaces his Pass = by 3S, while South is already calling for the TD. >=20 > TD states the following facts: > Wests 3NT was intended, and he replaced it, when he saw that his = partner did not alert. North believed that West did replace an = unintended 3NT bid by 3H, and changed his bid, believing it was his = right according to 25A. >=20 > 3H and 3S are withdrawn.=20 > E and W both pass, and there is a lead-penalty against South (L26) >=20 > North plays low from spade: KQ9876. Dummy has Jx and 4 hearts. > South wins with the Ace. He is not allowed to return his small spade, = and 3NT is made with 2 overtricks. The field was in 4H+1, only one pair = played 3NT-2. >=20 > We will have the following results: > for NS 0 MP (as played) > for EW 1 MP (according to L11) >=20 > OK, we have the laws to handle this. But the outcome is not very = satisfying. Wests forbidden intended change of a call leads to a much = worse result for N/S than the replacement of an accidental, unintended = call would have done, and from norths point of view, both cases look = alike. >=20 > Volker Walther >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > Am 14.09.2018 um 17:39 schrieb Gordon Rainsford: >> I think this is not clear from the original description. What action=20 >> are you positing that North has taken prior to the TD being called? >> And in what way are you suggesting they may have gained from it? >>=20 >> On Fri, Sep 14, 2018 at 4:22 PM Volker Walther <[email protected]=20 >> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >>=20 >> For me the biggest problem is that North may have believed to be = in a >> 25A case. If 25B does not allow to accept the change of call, the >> situation becomes hard to analyse: >>=20 >> The withdrawn 3 Spade bid becomes UI to South and we have a lead = penalty >> against him. But for E/W we have to apply 11A; they are not = allowed to >> benefit, neither from the knowledge about the intended and = withdrawn 3S, >> nor from the lead penalty. >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> Am 13.09.2018 um 16:56 schrieb Sven Pran: >> > Because once North calls (for instance Pass) over the 3NT bid = by >> West it >> > becomes East that is in turn to call (unless the 3NT bid is >> accepted as >> > an unintended call). >> > >> > =20 >> > >> > In this case the 3NT bid by West clearly did not satisfy the >> conditions >> > for an unintended call so the 3H bid by West at this time is a=20 >> call at >> > East=E2=80=99s turn to call, i.e. a call out of turn. >> > >> > =20 >> > >> > Law 25A applies to unintended calls, but notice that the final = result >> > will be the same whether North (incorrectly) is given the >> opportunity to >> > accept the 3H bid as a change of his 3NT bid or (correctly) use = his >> > right to accept the 3H bid out of turn. The main difference is = what >> > effect the irregularity may have on the (following) auction = and/or >> play. >> > >> > =20 >> > >> > In either case North is allowed to eventually make his own = desired >> 3S bid. >> > >> > =20 >> > >> > *Fra:* [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> = <mailto:[email protected]> >> <[email protected] = <mailto:[email protected]%20%3cmailto:[email protected]> = <mailto:[email protected]>> *P=C3=A5 vegne av* >> > Gordon Rainsford >> > *Sendt:* torsdag 13. september 2018 16.01 >> > *Til:* [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> = <mailto:[email protected]> >> > *Kopi:* BLML <[email protected] = <mailto:[email protected]%20%3cmailto:[email protected]> = <mailto:[email protected]>> >> > *Emne:* Re: [Blml] Law 25B1: Between 25A and 31 >> > >> > =20 >> > >> > Why would you want to pretend something was a call out of turn = when it >> > isn't? The terms of the original question told us that it was = an >> > intended change of call. >> > >> > =20 >> > >> > On Thu, Sep 13, 2018 at 9:27 AM Sven Pran <[email protected] >> <mailto:[email protected]> >> > <mailto:[email protected] = <mailto:[email protected]%20%3cmailto:[email protected]> = <mailto:[email protected]>>> wrote: >> > >> > Why not apply Law 31B1? >> > West's changed bid of 3H is actually a call out of rotation = at >> > East's turn >> > to call, this changed call stands and North is now in turn = to >> call. >> > North is free to bid 3S and East may then make any legal = call. >> > Law 16C2 now applies. >> > (North do not have the option to refuse West's change of = call!) >> > >> > -----Opprinnelig melding----- >> > Fra: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> = <mailto:[email protected]> >> <mailto:[email protected] = <mailto:[email protected]%20%3cmailto:[email protected]> = <mailto:[email protected]>> >> > <[email protected] = <mailto:[email protected]%20%3cmailto:[email protected]> = <mailto:[email protected]> >> <mailto:[email protected] = <mailto:[email protected]%20%3cmailto:[email protected]> = <mailto:[email protected]>>> P=C3=A5 >> vegne av >> > Volker >> > Walther >> > Sendt: onsdag 12. september 2018 17.53 >> > Til: blml <[email protected] = <mailto:[email protected]%20%3cmailto:[email protected]> = <mailto:[email protected]> >> <mailto:[email protected] = <mailto:[email protected]%20%3cmailto:[email protected]> = <mailto:[email protected]>>> >> > Emne: [Blml] Law 25B1: Between 25A and 31 >> > >> > When does the right (25B1) to accept an intended change of >> call cease? >> > >> > The bidding >> > >> > W N E S >> > 2NT P 3T(a) P (a) Puppet-Stayman >> > 3NT* p(1) (*) Meant to show 5 hearts. >> > >> > Now West remembers that he has to bid 3H to show his hearts = and >> > replaces his >> > bid. North wants to accept this change; he is wants to bid = 3S. >> > >> > >> > If 3NT had been unintended, we are in law 25A, 3S is an >> allowed bid. >> > p(1) is cancelled and becomes UI to E/W. >> > Especially we have 25A1, telling us that a replacement is >> allowed as >> > long >> > partner did not bid, and we 25A6, telling us how to deal = with >> > p(1): it may be withdrawn. >> > >> > >> > If 3H is meant to be an intended bid that should be given = in >> the next >> > round, we are in 31 (and 27). Again N is allowed to bid = 3S, but >> > this time >> > p(1) is not cancelled and it is AI to E/W. >> > >> > But now we are somewhere between 25B1, 25B2 and 31. >> > 31.C tells us, that a bid OOR shall be treated as a change = of >> call, >> > according to law 25 as long as LHO did not call. >> > >> > 25B1. is telling us, that a substition may be accepted; >> unfortunately it >> > does not tell when this right is ceasing. >> > Did North forfeit his right to accept a change of call, = when >> he called >> > p(1) over 3NT, throwing us do 25B2, or is acceptance = according to >> > 25B1 still >> > possible? >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > -- >> > Volker Walther >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Blml mailing list >> > [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> = <mailto:[email protected]> <mailto:[email protected] >> <mailto:[email protected]>> >> > http://lists.rtflb.org/mailman/listinfo/blml >> > >> > >> > >> > --- >> > This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. >> > https://www.avg.com >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Blml mailing list >> > [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> = <mailto:[email protected]> <mailto:[email protected] >> <mailto:[email protected]>> >> > http://lists.rtflb.org/mailman/listinfo/blml >> > >> > >> > >> <http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=3Demail = <http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=3Demail&utm_source=3Dlink&= utm_campaign=3Dsig-email&utm_content=3Demailclient> = &utm_source=3Dlink&utm_campaign=3Dsig-email&utm_content=3Demailclient> >> > Virus-free. www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com> = <http://www.avg.com> >> > >> <http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=3Demail = <http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=3Demail&utm_source=3Dlink&= utm_campaign=3Dsig-email&utm_content=3Demailclient> = &utm_source=3Dlink&utm_campaign=3Dsig-email&utm_content=3Demailclient> >> > >> > >> > <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Blml mailing list >> > [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> <mailto:[email protected]> >> > http://lists.rtflb.org/mailman/listinfo/blml >> > >>=20 >>=20 >> --=20 >> Volker Walther >> _______________________________________________ >> Blml mailing list >> [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> <mailto:[email protected]> >> http://lists.rtflb.org/mailman/listinfo/blml >>=20 >=20 >=20 > -- > Volker Walther > _______________________________________________ > Blml mailing list > [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>=20 > http://lists.rtflb.org/mailman/listinfo/blml >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Blml mailing list > [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>=20 > http://lists.rtflb.org/mailman/listinfo/blml >=20 =20 =20 -- Volker Walther _______________________________________________ Blml mailing list [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>=20 http://lists.rtflb.org/mailman/listinfo/blml =20 _______________________________________________ Blml mailing list [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>=20 http://lists.rtflb.org/mailman/listinfo/blml =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0015_01D44DA7.6F085040 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <html xmlns:v=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" = xmlns:o=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" = xmlns:w=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" = xmlns:m=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml" = xmlns=3D"http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40"><head><meta = http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8"><meta = name=3DGenerator content=3D"Microsoft Word 15 (filtered = medium)"><style><!-- /* Font Definitions */ @font-face {font-family:"Cambria Math"; panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;} @font-face {font-family:Calibri; panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} /* Style Definitions */ p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal {margin:0cm; margin-bottom:.0001pt; font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;} a:link, span.MsoHyperlink {mso-style-priority:99; color:blue; text-decoration:underline;} a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed {mso-style-priority:99; color:#954F72; text-decoration:underline;} p.msonormal0, li.msonormal0, div.msonormal0 {mso-style-name:msonormal; mso-margin-top-alt:auto; margin-right:0cm; mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto; margin-left:0cm; font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;} span.EpostStil19 {mso-style-type:personal-reply; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:windowtext;} .MsoChpDefault {mso-style-type:export-only; font-size:10.0pt;} @page WordSection1 {size:612.0pt 792.0pt; margin:72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt;} div.WordSection1 {page:WordSection1;} --></style><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <o:shapedefaults v:ext=3D"edit" spidmax=3D"1026" /> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <o:shapelayout v:ext=3D"edit"> <o:idmap v:ext=3D"edit" data=3D"1" /> </o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=3DNO-BOK link=3Dblue = vlink=3D"#954F72"><div class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-US style=3D'mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>Once LHO calls we = leave the territory of changing an intended call (Law 25B) and enters = the territory of calling out of rotation (Law = 29).<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US = style=3D'mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US = style=3D'mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>There is no need for clarification = other than making it clear that Law 25A only allows a call out of = rotation when it is a substitution of an unintended call made before = partner calls.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-US = style=3D'mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><di= v style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm = 0cm 0cm'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b>Fra:</b> Gordon Rainsford = <[email protected]> <br><b>Sendt:</b> s=C3=B8ndag 16. september = 2018 09.52<br><b>Til:</b> Sven Pran <[email protected]>; 'Volker = Walther' <[email protected]>; [email protected]<br><b>Emne:</b> RE: = [Blml] Law 25B1: Between 25A and 31<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p = class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB>The problem with allowing LHO to accept an intentional = change of call after having already called is, how long after would you = allow this? Until the end of the auction? Until the player has bid again = on the next round? Or until partner has called? And on what do you base = this view?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB>I think it=E2=80=99s clear that it wasn=E2=80=99t envisaged = that LHO might wish to accept an intentional change that was introduced = AFTER LHO had already called. And if it were allowed what would be = allowed to LHO in the way of changing the first call, considering it was = not made OVER the attempted substitute call? What of other calls that = may also have been made in the auction?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB>I agree with you that I would = welcome the WBFLC clarifying the position.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB>Sent from <a = href=3D"https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=3D550986">Mail</a> for = Windows 10<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div = style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm = 0cm 0cm'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span lang=3DEN-GB>From: = </span></b><span lang=3DEN-GB><a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">Sven = Pran</a><br><b>Sent: </b>16 September 2018 02:49<br><b>To: </b><a = href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">'Volker Walther'</a>; <a = href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</a><br><b>Subject: </b>Re: = [Blml] Law 25B1: Between 25A and 31<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB>Well then - Let us analyze = the consequences of the view by Gordon and EBL TD forum. Obviously we = must start with Law 25B1 which says:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB>A substituted call not permitted by = A may be accepted by the offender=E2=80=99s LHO. (It is accepted if LHO = calls intentionally over it.) The first call is then withdrawn, the = second call stands and the auction continues (Law 26 may apply). = <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB>There can be no doubt that North may accept the substituted = 3H bid by West, and in fact has accepted it by bidding 3S after the = substitution. (His original pass was before the substitution and thus no = acceptance of it.)<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB>Did North violate any law with this action? (If so then = which law?)<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB>If we instead had started with the 3NT bid by West being = accepted as unintended we had been in Law 25A territory. = <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB>West would = then have had the undisputed right to substitute 3H for his 3NT bid, and = North would have the undisputed right to subsequently withdraw his pass = and bid 3S in turn, as Law 25A6 says:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB>If a substitution is allowed the = LHO may withdraw any call he made over the first call. Information from = the withdrawn call is authorized to his side and unauthorized to the = opponents.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB>I have no doubt that the intention of WBFLC must have been = to let an offender's LHO enjoy the privilege specified in Law 25A6 also = when an intended call is withdrawn and substituted. = <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB>And I am convinced that if this situation is brought to the = attention of WBFLC we shall have an immediate clarification to the = effect that Law 25A6 applies also under Law 25B.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB>-----Opprinnelig = melding-----<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB>Fra: <a = href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</a> <<a = href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</a>> = P=C3=A5 vegne av Volker Walther<o:p></o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB>Sendt: l=C3=B8rdag 15. september = 2018 16.48<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB>Til: <a = href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</a><o:p></o:p></span></p><p= class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB>Emne: Re: [Blml] Law 25B1: Between = 25A and 31<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB>Hello Sven, I think we nearly agree how to handle the = situation, but it is not the official line.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB>Gordon and the EBL TD forum argued, = that we are in law 25 because West obviously tried to replace his bid. = To decide whether we are in 25A or in 25B, we have to know West's = intention. As soon as we decide that it was an intended replacement, we = are stuck to 25B and away from 31.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB>(I do agree to that = point)<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB>There is no such thing like 25A6 in 25B. So we do not have = any speciial instruction, how to deal with North's first call (the = "pass").<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB>Furthermore Gordon told us: Lack of this instruction lead = the forum to the conclusion, that West's intended change of a call may = no longer be accepted by North, when he made a call = ("pass") after the replaced bid (3NT).<o:p></o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB>(I do not agree in this = point)<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB>So, = they argued, the replacement 3H has to be withdrawn. If 3H has to be = withdrawn, we have to withdraw 3S as well. If North was no longer = allowed to accept the change by bidding over it, he became an offending = side when he made the illegal 3S bid. We do have laws for all the = withdrawn bids (16C, 26, 11). They are leading us to a split-score = as described.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB>I do not like the result for several = reasons.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB>1.) It is breaking the basic rule: "Whenever my RHO = makes a call, I may accept it and treat it as regular. There will be no = rectification."<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB>2.) It depends on West's hidden intention whether North's = 3S bid is lawful.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB>3.a) We do not have special rules to deal with an action = (e.g. the 3S<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB>bid) that is made by North after the = infraction.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB>3.b) Applying general rules 26, 16C and 11 will = mostly generate a split-score as final result, which likely is away from = the normal result without the cancelled calls.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB>I would prefer to avoid the = situation by following this line:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB>According to 25A1 North may accept = the substitution of 3NT by 3H by bidding intentionally 3S over 3H - no = matter whether he made a bid over 3NT. In this case 3NT is withdrawn = (L25B1) and the following "pass" is withdrawn as well. 3H was = an irregularity. 3S was an action of the non offending side, Law 11 A = applies. Especially North is loosing his rights to rectify West's = irregularity. 16C and 26 do no longer apply to the 3NT bid. Bidding 3S = after 3H is allowed by 25A1. North is not an offending side for the = purposes of 16C and 26 with respect to the withdrawn = "pass".<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB>(We have laws, telling us how to deal with this = call!)<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB>If the TD has been called before North made the 3S bid, the = TD should explain Law 25B, especially consequences of accepting the 3H = bid by making a call over it as above, according to 9B1(c). He = will also have to tell that North may not accept the replacement. If he = does so, we have the usual rectifications for the = 3H.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB>Following this line we have have established the principle = from 1.) and have consistent rulings in 25A, 27, 31 and = 25B.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB>Your way to handle the situation as either 25A , or 31 and = 27 leads to a similar result. My impression is that you try do bend the = law to save the basic principle 1).<o:p></o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB>But we both are not not in = accordance with Gordons and the forums line.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB>Volker<o:p></o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB>Am 14.09.2018 um 23:48 schrieb Sven = Pran:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB>> = <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB>> = <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB>> I = don't understand this:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB>> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB>> Which Law(s) does the TD apply after stating the = facts: Law 25A, Law <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB>> 25B, Law 27A or Law 29A? = (Other?)<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB>> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB>> He may (incorrectly) apply Law25A (Unintended Call), = or (correctly) apply Law 25B (Call Intended), or Laws 27A1 and 29A = (insufficient bid out of turn at partner's turn to call). = <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB>> = <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB>> In = either case North has with his 3S bid accepted the 3H bid by West, the = auction continues from this 3S bid and there is no further = rectification.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB>> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB>> On what ground (which Law?) do you state = "3H and 3S are withdrawn". <o:p></o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB>> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB>> When you state that E and W = both passes is this a voluntary action or <o:p></o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB>> a rectification ordered by the = TD (Which Law?)<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB>> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB>> I believe you have overlooked Law 25A6 when you state = that there is a lead-penalty against South?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB>> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB>> -----Opprinnelig = melding-----<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB>> Fra: <a = href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</a> <<a = href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</a>> = P=C3=A5 vegne av <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB>> Volker Walther<o:p></o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB>> Sendt: fredag 14. september = 2018 21.08<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB>> Til: Gordon Rainsford <<a = href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</a>><o:p></o:p= ></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB>> Kopi: BLML = <<a = href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</a>><o:p></o:p></span></= p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB>> Emne: ***SPAM*** Re: = [Blml] Law 25B1: Between 25A and 31<o:p></o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB>> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB>> The original description = arouse from a discussion between some TDs. IT was no real = case.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB>> = <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB>> = To make the last question more precise lets look at the following = hypothetical case:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB>> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB>> Dealer: W<o:p></o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB>> Vul.: = E/W<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB>> = <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB>> = W N = E S<o:p></o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB>> 2NT = P 3T(a) P (a) = Puppet-Stayman<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB>> 3NT* = p = * not alerted, meant to show = H<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB>> = <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB>> = West replaces swiftly 3NT by 3H, afterwards North replaces his = Pass by 3S, while South is already calling for the = TD.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB>> = <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB>> TD = states the following facts:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB>> Wests 3NT was intended, and he = replaced it, when he saw that his partner did not alert. North believed = that West did replace an unintended 3NT bid by 3H, and changed his bid, = believing it was his right according to 25A.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB>> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB>> 3H and 3S are withdrawn. = <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB>> E and = W both pass, and there is a lead-penalty against South = (L26)<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB>> = <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB>> North = plays low from spade: KQ9876. Dummy has Jx and 4 = hearts.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB>> South wins with the Ace. He is not allowed to = return his small spade, and 3NT is made with 2 overtricks. The field was = in 4H+1, only one pair played 3NT-2.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB>> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB>> We will have the following = results:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB>> for NS 0 MP (as played)<o:p></o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB>> for EW 1 MP (according to = L11)<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB>> = <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB>> OK, = we have the laws to handle this. But the outcome is not very satisfying. = Wests forbidden intended change of a call leads to a much worse result = for N/S than the replacement of an accidental, unintended call would = have done, and from norths point of view, both cases look = alike.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB>> = <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB>> = Volker Walther<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB>> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB>> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB>> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB>> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB>> Am 14.09.2018 um 17:39 schrieb Gordon = Rainsford:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB>>> I think this is not clear from the original = description. What action <o:p></o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB>>> are you positing that = North has taken prior to the TD being called?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB>>> And in what way are you = suggesting they may have gained from it?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB>>><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB>>> On Fri, Sep 14, 2018 at = 4:22 PM Volker Walther <[email protected] <o:p></o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB>>> <<a = href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">mailto:[email protected]</a>>> = wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB>>><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB>>> = For me the biggest problem is that North may have believed to be in = a<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB>>> 25A case. If 25B does not = allow to accept the change of call, the<o:p></o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB>>> = situation becomes hard to analyse:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB>>><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB>>> = The withdrawn 3 Spade bid becomes UI to South and we have a lead = penalty<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB>>> against him. But for E/W = we have to apply 11A; they are not allowed to<o:p></o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB>>> = benefit, neither from the knowledge about the intended and withdrawn = 3S,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB>>> nor from the lead = penalty.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB>>><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB>>><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB>>><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB>>><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB>>><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB>>><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB>>><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB>>> Am = 13.09.2018 um 16:56 schrieb Sven Pran:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB>>> = > Because once North calls (for instance Pass) over the 3NT bid = by<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB>>> West = it<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB>>> > becomes East that is = in turn to call (unless the 3NT bid is<o:p></o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB>>> = accepted as<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB>>> > an unintended = call).<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB>>> = ><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB>>> > = <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB>>> = ><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB>>> > In this case the 3NT = bid by West clearly did not satisfy the<o:p></o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB>>> = conditions<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB>>> > for an unintended = call so the 3H bid by West at this time is a <o:p></o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB>>> = call at<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB>>> > East=E2=80=99s turn = to call, i.e. a call out of turn.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB>>> = ><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB>>> > = <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB>>> = ><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB>>> > Law 25A applies to = unintended calls, but notice that the final = result<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB>>> > will be the same = whether North (incorrectly) is given the<o:p></o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB>>> = opportunity to<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB>>> > accept the 3H bid as = a change of his 3NT bid or (correctly) use his<o:p></o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB>>> = > right to accept the 3H bid out of turn. The main difference is = what<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB>>> > effect the = irregularity may have on the (following) auction = and/or<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB>>> = play.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB>>> = ><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB>>> > = <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB>>> = ><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB>>> > In either case North = is allowed to eventually make his own desired<o:p></o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB>>> = 3S bid.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB>>> = ><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB>>> > = <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB>>> = ><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB>>> > *Fra:* <a = href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</a> <<a = href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">mailto:[email protected]</a>&= gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB>>> <<a = href=3D"mailto:[email protected]%20%3cmailto:[email protected]"= >[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]</a>>> = *P=C3=A5 vegne av*<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB>>> > Gordon = Rainsford<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB>>> > *Sendt:* torsdag 13. = september 2018 16.01<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB>>> > *Til:* <a = href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</a> <<a = href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">mailto:[email protected]</a>><o:p></= o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB>>> > *Kopi:* BLML <<a = href=3D"mailto:[email protected]%20%3cmailto:[email protected]">[email protected] = <mailto:[email protected]</a>>><o:p></o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB>>> = > *Emne:* Re: [Blml] Law 25B1: Between 25A and = 31<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB>>> = ><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB>>> > = <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB>>> = ><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB>>> > Why would you want to = pretend something was a call out of turn when it<o:p></o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB>>> = > isn't? The terms of the original question told us that it was = an<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB>>> > intended change of = call.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB>>> = ><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB>>> > = <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB>>> = ><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB>>> > On Thu, Sep 13, 2018 = at 9:27 AM Sven Pran <[email protected]<o:p></o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB>>> = <<a = href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">mailto:[email protected]</a>><o:p></= o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB>>> > <<a = href=3D"mailto:[email protected]%20%3cmailto:[email protected]">mailto:sv= [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]</a>>>> = wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB>>> = ><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB>>> = > Why not apply Law = 31B1?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB>>> = > West's changed bid of 3H is actually a call = out of rotation at<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB>>> = > East's turn<o:p></o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB>>> = > to call, this changed call stands and North = is now in turn to<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB>>> = call.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB>>> = > North is free to bid 3S and East may then = make any legal call.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB>>> = > Law 16C2 now = applies.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB>>> = > (North do not have the option to refuse = West's change of call!)<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB>>> = ><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB>>> = > -----Opprinnelig = melding-----<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB>>> = > Fra: <a = href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</a> <<a = href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">mailto:[email protected]</a>&= gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB>>> <<a = href=3D"mailto:[email protected]%20%3cmailto:[email protected]"= >mailto:[email protected] = <mailto:[email protected]</a>>><o:p></o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB>>> = > <<a = href=3D"mailto:[email protected]%20%3cmailto:[email protected]"= >[email protected] = <mailto:[email protected]</a>><o:p></o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB>>> = <<a = href=3D"mailto:[email protected]%20%3cmailto:[email protected]"= >mailto:[email protected] = <mailto:[email protected]</a>>>> = P=C3=A5<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB>>> vegne = av<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB>>> = > Volker<o:p></o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB>>> = > Walther<o:p></o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB>>> = > Sendt: onsdag 12. september 2018 = 17.53<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB>>> = > Til: blml <<a = href=3D"mailto:[email protected]%20%3cmailto:[email protected]">[email protected] = <mailto:[email protected]</a>><o:p></o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB>>> = <<a = href=3D"mailto:[email protected]%20%3cmailto:[email protected]">mailto:blml@rtf= lb.org <mailto:[email protected]</a>>>><o:p></o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB>>> = > Emne: [Blml] Law 25B1: Between 25A and = 31<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB>>> = ><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB>>> = > When does the right (25B1) to accept an = intended change of<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB>>> call = cease?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB>>> = ><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB>>> = > The bidding<o:p></o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB>>> = ><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB>>> > = W N = E S<o:p></o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB>>> = > 2NT = P 3T(a) P (a) = Puppet-Stayman<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB>>> = > 3NT* = p(1) &nb= sp; (*) Meant to show 5 = hearts.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB>>> = ><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB>>> = > Now West remembers that he has to bid 3H to = show his hearts and<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB>>> = > replaces his<o:p></o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB>>> = > bid. North wants to accept this change; he = is wants to bid 3S.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB>>> = ><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB>>> = ><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB>>> = > If 3NT had been unintended, we are in law = 25A, 3S is an<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB>>> allowed = bid.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB>>> = > p(1) is cancelled and becomes UI to = E/W.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB>>> = > Especially we have 25A1, telling us that a = replacement is<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB>>> allowed = as<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB>>> = > long<o:p></o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB>>> = > partner did not bid, and we 25A6, = telling us how to deal with<o:p></o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB>>> = > p(1): it may be = withdrawn.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB>>> = ><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB>>> = ><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB>>> = > If 3H is meant to be an intended bid = that should be given in<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB>>> the = next<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB>>> = > round, we are in 31 (and 27). Again N = is allowed to bid 3S, but<o:p></o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB>>> = > this time<o:p></o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB>>> = > p(1) is not cancelled and it is AI to = E/W.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB>>> = ><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB>>> = > But now we are somewhere between 25B1, 25B2 = and 31.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB>>> = > 31.C tells us, that a bid OOR shall be = treated as a change of<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB>>> = call,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB>>> = > according to law 25 as long as LHO did not = call.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB>>> = ><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB>>> = > 25B1. is telling us, that a substition may = be accepted;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB>>> unfortunately = it<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB>>> = > does not tell when this right is = ceasing.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB>>> = > Did North forfeit his right to accept a = change of call, when<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB>>> he = called<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB>>> > = p(1) over 3NT, throwing us do 25B2, or is = acceptance according to<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB>>> = > 25B1 still<o:p></o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB>>> = > possible?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB>>> = ><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB>>> = ><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB>>> = ><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB>>> = ><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB>>> = > --<o:p></o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB>>> = > Volker Walther<o:p></o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB>>> = > = _______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB>>> = > Blml mailing list<o:p></o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB>>> = > <a = href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</a> <<a = href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">mailto:[email protected]</a>> = <mailto:[email protected]<o:p></o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB>>> = <<a = href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">mailto:[email protected]</a>>><o:p></o:= p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB>>> = > <a = href=3D"http://lists.rtflb.org/mailman/listinfo/blml">http://lists.rtflb.= org/mailman/listinfo/blml</a><o:p></o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB>>> = ><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB>>> = ><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB>>> = ><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB>>> = > ---<o:p></o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB>>> = > This email has been checked for viruses by = AVG.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB>>> = > <a = href=3D"https://www.avg.com">https://www.avg.com</a><o:p></o:p></span></p= ><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB>>> = ><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB>>> = > = _______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB>>> = > Blml mailing list<o:p></o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB>>> = > <a = href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</a> <<a = href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">mailto:[email protected]</a>> = <mailto:[email protected]<o:p></o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB>>> = <<a = href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">mailto:[email protected]</a>>><o:p></o:= p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB>>> = > <a = href=3D"http://lists.rtflb.org/mailman/listinfo/blml">http://lists.rtflb.= org/mailman/listinfo/blml</a><o:p></o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB>>> = ><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB>>> = ><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB>>> = ><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB>>> <<a = href=3D"http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=3Demail&utm_sou= rce=3Dlink&utm_campaign=3Dsig-email&utm_content=3Demailclient">ht= tp://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=3Demail&utm_source=3Dlink= &utm_campaign=3Dsig-email&utm_content=3Demailclient</a>><o:p><= /o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB>>> = > Virus-free. <a = href=3D"http://www.avg.com">www.avg.com</a> <<a = href=3D"http://www.avg.com">http://www.avg.com</a>><o:p></o:p></span><= /p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB>>> = ><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB>>> <<a = href=3D"http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=3Demail&utm_sou= rce=3Dlink&utm_campaign=3Dsig-email&utm_content=3Demailclient">ht= tp://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=3Demail&utm_source=3Dlink= &utm_campaign=3Dsig-email&utm_content=3Demailclient</a>><o:p><= /o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB>>> = ><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB>>> = ><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB>>> > = <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2><o:p></o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB>>> = ><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB>>> = ><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB>>> > = _______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB>>> = > Blml mailing list<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB>>> > <a = href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</a> <<a = href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">mailto:[email protected]</a>><o:p></o:p></= span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB>>> > <a = href=3D"http://lists.rtflb.org/mailman/listinfo/blml">http://lists.rtflb.= org/mailman/listinfo/blml</a><o:p></o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB>>> = ><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB>>><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB>>><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB>>> -- = <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB>>> Volker = Walther<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB>>> = _______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB>>> = Blml mailing list<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB>>> <a = href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</a> <<a = href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">mailto:[email protected]</a>><o:p></o:p></= span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB>>> <a = href=3D"http://lists.rtflb.org/mailman/listinfo/blml">http://lists.rtflb.= org/mailman/listinfo/blml</a><o:p></o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB>>><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB>> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB>> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB>> --<o:p></o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB>> Volker = Walther<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB>> = _______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB>> Blml mailing = list<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB>> = <a = href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</a><o:p></o:p></span></p><p= class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB>> <a = href=3D"http://lists.rtflb.org/mailman/listinfo/blml">http://lists.rtflb.= org/mailman/listinfo/blml</a><o:p></o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB>> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB>> = _______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB>> Blml mailing = list<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB>> = <a = href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</a><o:p></o:p></span></p><p= class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB>> <a = href=3D"http://lists.rtflb.org/mailman/listinfo/blml">http://lists.rtflb.= org/mailman/listinfo/blml</a><o:p></o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB>> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB>--<o:p></o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB>Volker = Walther<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></= span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB>Blml mailing = list<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB><a = href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</a><o:p></o:p></span></p><p= class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB><a = href=3D"http://lists.rtflb.org/mailman/listinfo/blml">http://lists.rtflb.= org/mailman/listinfo/blml</a><o:p></o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></= span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB>Blml mailing = list<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB><a = href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</a><o:p></o:p></span></p><p= class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB><a = href=3D"http://lists.rtflb.org/mailman/listinfo/blml">http://lists.rtflb.= org/mailman/listinfo/blml</a><o:p></o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div></body></html> ------=_NextPart_000_0015_01D44DA7.6F085040-- --===============0064710255== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Blml mailing list [email protected] http://lists.rtflb.org/mailman/listinfo/blml --===============0064710255==--