Re: CSG operations on textured meshes -- something better than CGAL?
Jon Watte <[email protected]> Tue, 27 May 2014 09:20:35 -0700
| Newsgroups | gmane.games.devel.algorithms |
|---|---|
| Message-ID | <CAJgyHGNzLe1AYL5HapcpBaEK9yDqXCXDEUb7j_Spc7DL7ayw=g@mail.gmail.com> |
--===============7898807522951611877== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11c211165a553604fa6413d7 --001a11c211165a553604fa6413d7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable That's actually quite helpful! Thanks. Sincerely, Jon Watte -- "I find that the harder I work, the more luck I seem to have." -- Thomas Jefferson On Wed, May 21, 2014 at 12:53 PM, Graham Rhodes ARA/SED <[email protected]>wr= ote: > Components of the IntegrityWare SOLIDS++ commercial middleware may be > useful. For example: > > > > http://www.integrityware.com/meshlib.html > > > > Not sure how they handle interpolating vertex attributes, though. They > might support a user-provided function for that. > > > > Beyond that, we use Spatial=E2=80=99s ACIS library for some quite complex= CSG > work. This adds another level of cost and complexity through, being > primarily used in the CAD industry. It does support non-manifold topology= , > regularized and non-regularized solids, provides built-in functions to do > operations such as extruding or offsetting a sheet into a thickened solid= , > geometry healing, etc. ACIS is extremely flexible in the way you can > attribute intermediate surfaces and edge lists that arise during the > evaluation of CSG ops. And there are the ACIS competitors=E2=80=A6Parasol= id, > Granite, Open Cascade (assuming these others still exist=E2=80=A6my knowl= edge of > solid modeling kernels is slightly stale now). > > > > Graham > > > > *From:* Eric Haines [mailto:[email protected]] > *Sent:* Wednesday, May 21, 2014 11:39 AM > *To:* Game Development Algorithms > *Subject:* Re: [Algorithms] CSG operations on textured meshes -- > something better than CGAL? > > > > I'd certainly like to know, too. MeshLab might have one hiding in its > bowels, but I haven't looked hard enough yet. MeshMixer looks super-cool, > but appears to be just an application, not a library. > > > > On Wed, May 21, 2014 at 11:05 AM, Jon Watte <[email protected]> wrote: > > > You are going to be distorting triangles in different ways depending on > the overall shape of the mesh at any given point though. > > > If you just retain existing UV coordinates for the new vertices, the > results will be... strange. > > > > I do this operation with some frequency in 3ds Max, and it works the way = I > expect there. > > > > The 3ds Max boolean (and proboolean) modifier behavior would be good > enough for my purposes, although they do have some edge cases and > limitaitons (a k a "bugs" :-) > > But I don't want to buy a copy of 3ds Max per server that will be running > this code, not to mention I want to run the servers on Linux. > > > > So, does anyone know of any textured-triangle-mesh CSG library out there, > free or paid for, that would work? > > > > Sincerely, > > > > jw > > > > > > > > > > Sincerely, > > Jon Watte > > > -- > "I find that the harder I work, the more luck I seem to have." -- Thomas > Jefferson > > > > On Tue, May 13, 2014 at 10:07 PM, James Robertson <[email protected]> > wrote: > > You are going to be distorting triangles in different ways depending on > the overall shape of the mesh at any given point though. If you just > retain existing UV coordinates for the new vertices, the results will > be... strange. > > Consider the case where a convex region meets a concave one. One side of > the triangle will be slightly expanded, while the other side will be > contracted. Of course you know your input data better than us, so maybe > such distortions are acceptable or won't be noticeable, but they will be > there. > > > > On 14/05/2014 01:41, Jon Watte wrote: > > I don=E2=80=99t believe you will be able to use your existing uv values= with > the mesh that results from this csg operation > > > > The operations I want to do are rigid and well conditioned and do not > stretch or generate new surfaces compared to the input meshes. They may > invert the winding of triangles, though (so normal maps would have to be > flipped) in the case of a cut-out. > > I also need to preserve vertex bone weighting, too... something that can > preserve UV should be able to preserve that, too. Worst case, I put in a > vertex ID value in the UV channel and loop up the other parameters based = on > that. > > > > So... no general purpose parameterized trimesh CSG library available? > > > > Sincerely, > > > > jw > > > > > > > > Sincerely, > > Jon Watte > > > -- > "I find that the harder I work, the more luck I seem to have." -- Thomas > Jefferson > > > > On Thu, May 8, 2014 at 12:28 PM, Chris Green <[email protected]> > wrote: > > I don=E2=80=99t believe you will be able to use your existing uv values w= ith the > mesh that results from this csg operation =E2=80=93 it has a different to= pology, > and there will be changes in the ratios of the areas of different parts o= f > the model, with really bumpy areas of the mesh being smoothed out, etc. > You=E2=80=99ll even have brand new areas emerge that don=E2=80=99t have c= orresponding areas > on the original model, as holes are filled in, etc. > > > > What might work better is to just do the csg operation and generate a uv > atlas for the resultant mesh. You can then generate a new texture map for > this uv parametization by sampling from the original one, in a similar > manner to the way in which people produce bumpmaps mapping the normals of > highly tessellated models onto low-detail models. > > > > > > > > *From:* Jon Watte [mailto:[email protected]] > *Sent:* Thursday, May 08, 2014 11:08 AM > *To:* Game Development Algorithms > *Subject:* [Algorithms] CSG operations on textured meshes -- something > better than CGAL? > > > > I have a triangle mesh composed of many submeshes with different > textures/materials. This mesh may not be a 2-manifold -- it may have open > edges. Typical game art. > > > > I now want to create a 3mm thick shell of this mesh. As an approximation, > taking each triangle, and extrude it back along the normal of each vertex= , > and union all of those generated chopped pyramids would be an approximati= on > of what I want. If I do literally that, and self-union the result, then > that should resolve the self-intersection problems I'll run into along > narrow sharp creases etc. > > > > I can't find any library to do this, though. CGAL has some fairly robust > functions on NEF polyhedra, but those polyhedra don't seem to allow > parameterization (which is academic speak for texture coordinates that ma= y > have discontinuities across edges.) > > > > So, what are some robust CSG libraries available that work on such > game-style meshes, preserving texture coordinates? > > > > (And actually, I don't have one such mesh; I have > 120 million such > meshes, so a by-hand or even script-the-Max-shell-modifier solution is > unlikely to work. I do have hundreds of Linux servers at my disposal, > though.) > > > > Sincerely, > > Jon Watte > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- > "Accelerate Dev Cycles with Automated Cross-Browser Testing - For FREE > Instantly run your Selenium tests across 300+ browser/OS combos. > Get unparalleled scalability from the best Selenium testing platform > available > Simple to use. Nothing to install. Get started now for free." > http://p.sf.net/sfu/SauceLabs > _______________________________________________ > GDAlgorithms-list mailing list > [email protected] > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gdalgorithms-list > Archives: > http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?forum_name=3Dgdalgorithms-li= st > --001a11c211165a553604fa6413d7 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <div dir=3D"ltr">That's actually quite helpful! Thanks.<div><br></div><= /div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br clear=3D"all"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><fo= nt face=3D"courier new, monospace"><br><br><br><font>Sincerely,</font><br><= br><font>Jon Watte</font><br> <br><br>--<br>"<span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)">I find that the harder= I work, the more luck I seem to have." -- Thomas Jefferson</span></fo= nt></div></div> <br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, May 21, 2014 at 12:53 PM, Graham= Rhodes ARA/SED <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" ta= rget=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class= =3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padd= ing-left:1ex"> <div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple"> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ca= libri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Components of the Integri= tyWare SOLIDS++ commercial middleware may be useful. For example:<u></u><u>= </u></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ca= libri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></spa= n></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ca= libri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><a href=3D"http://www.int= egrityware.com/meshlib.html" target=3D"_blank">http://www.integrityware.com= /meshlib.html</a><u></u><u></u></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ca= libri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></spa= n></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ca= libri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Not sure how they handle = interpolating vertex attributes, though. They might support a user-provided= function for that.<u></u><u></u></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ca= libri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></spa= n></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ca= libri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Beyond that, we use Spati= al=E2=80=99s ACIS library for some quite complex CSG work. This adds anothe= r level of cost and complexity through, being primarily used in the CAD industry. It does support non-manifold topology, regularized and n= on-regularized solids, provides built-in functions to do operations such as= extruding or offsetting a sheet into a thickened solid, geometry healing, = etc. ACIS is extremely flexible in the way you can attribute intermediate surfaces and edge lists that ari= se during the evaluation of CSG ops. And there are the ACIS competitors=E2= =80=A6Parasolid, Granite, Open Cascade (assuming these others still exist= =E2=80=A6my knowledge of solid modeling kernels is slightly stale now).<u></u><u></u></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ca= libri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></spa= n></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ca= libri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Graham<u></u><u></u></spa= n></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ca= libri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></spa= n></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"= ;Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s= ize:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> Eric Hai= nes [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" target=3D"_blank">eric= [email protected]</a>] <br> <b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, May 21, 2014 11:39 AM<br> <b>To:</b> Game Development Algorithms<br> <b>Subject:</b> Re: [Algorithms] CSG operations on textured meshes -- somet= hing better than CGAL?<u></u><u></u></span></p><div><div class=3D"h5"> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal">I'd certainly like to know, too. MeshLab might h= ave one hiding in its bowels, but I haven't looked hard enough yet. Mes= hMixer looks super-cool, but appears to be just an application, not a libra= ry.<u></u><u></u></p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u><= /p> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Wed, May 21, 2014 at 11:05 AM, Jon Watte <<a h= ref=3D"mailto:[email protected]" target=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a>> = wrote:<u></u><u></u></p> <div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.5pt;font-family:"Ar= ial","sans-serif"">> You are going to be distorting trian= gles in different ways depending on the overall shape of the mesh at any gi= ven point though.=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p> </div> <div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.5pt;font-family:"Ar= ial","sans-serif"">> If you just retain existing UV coord= inates for the new vertices, the results will be...=C2=A0 strange.</span><u= ></u><u></u></p> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p> </div> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.5pt;font-family:"Ar= ial","sans-serif"">I do this operation with some frequency i= n 3ds Max, and it works the way I expect there.</span><u></u><u></u></p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.5pt;font-family:"Ar= ial","sans-serif"">The 3ds Max boolean (and proboolean) modi= fier behavior would be good enough for my purposes, although they do have s= ome edge cases and limitaitons (a k a "bugs" :-)</span><u></u><u>= </u></p> </div> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.5pt;font-family:"Ar= ial","sans-serif"">But I don't want to buy a copy of 3ds= Max per server that will be running this code, not to mention I want to ru= n the servers on Linux.</span><u></u><u></u></p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.5pt;font-family:"Ar= ial","sans-serif"">So, does anyone know of any textured-tria= ngle-mesh CSG library out there, free or paid for, that would work?</span><= u></u><u></u></p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.5pt;font-family:"Ar= ial","sans-serif"">Sincerely,</span><u></u><u></u></p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.5pt;font-family:"Ar= ial","sans-serif"">jw</span><u></u><u></u></p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p> </div> </div> <div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br clear=3D"all"> <u></u><u></u></p> <div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:"Courier New"">= <br> <br> <br> Sincerely,<br> <br> Jon Watte<br> <br> <br> --<br> "<span style=3D"color:black">I find that the harder I work, the more l= uck I seem to have." -- Thomas Jefferson</span></span><u></u><u></u></= p> </div> </div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u><= /p> </div> <div> <div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Tue, May 13, 2014 at 10:07 PM, James Robertson &l= t;<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" target=3D"_blank">[email protected]<= /a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal">You are going to be distorting triangles in differen= t ways depending on the overall shape of the mesh at any given point though= .=C2=A0 If you just retain existing UV coordinates for the new vertices, th= e results will be...=C2=A0 strange.<br> <br> Consider the case where a convex region meets a concave one.=C2=A0 One side= of the triangle will be slightly expanded, while the other side will be co= ntracted.=C2=A0 Of course you know your input data better than us, so maybe= such distortions are acceptable or won't be noticeable, but they will be there.<u></u><u></u></p> <div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br> <br> <u></u><u></u></p> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal">On 14/05/2014 01:41, Jon Watte wrote:<u></u><u></u><= /p> </div> </div> </div> <blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"> <div> <div> <div> <blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i= n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in"> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ca= libri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">I don=E2=80=99t believe y= ou will be able to use your existing uv values with the mesh that results f= rom this csg operation</span><u></u><u></u></p> </blockquote> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal">The operations I want to do are rigid and well condi= tioned and do not stretch or generate new surfaces compared to the input me= shes. They may invert the winding of triangles, though (so normal maps woul= d have to be flipped) in the case of a cut-out.<u></u><u></u></p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal">I also need to preserve vertex bone weighting, too..= . something that can preserve UV should be able to preserve that, too. Wors= t case, I put in a vertex ID value in the UV channel and loop up the other = parameters based on that.<u></u><u></u></p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal">So... no general purpose parameterized trimesh CSG l= ibrary available?=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal">Sincerely,<u></u><u></u></p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal">jw<u></u><u></u></p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p> </div> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br clear=3D"all"> <u></u><u></u></p> <div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:"Courier New"">= <br> <br> <br> Sincerely,<br> <br> Jon Watte<br> <br> <br> --<br> "<span style=3D"color:black">I find that the harder I work, the more l= uck I seem to have." -- Thomas Jefferson</span></span><u></u><u></u></= p> </div> </div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u><= /p> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Thu, May 8, 2014 at 12:28 PM, Chris Green <<a = href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" target=3D"_blank">cgreen@valvesoft= ware.com</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p> <div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ca= libri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">I don=E2=80=99t believe y= ou will be able to use your existing uv values with the mesh that results f= rom this csg operation =E2=80=93 it has a different topology, and there will be cha= nges in the ratios of the areas of different parts of the model, with reall= y bumpy areas of the mesh being smoothed out, etc. You=E2=80=99ll even have= brand new areas emerge that don=E2=80=99t have corresponding areas on the original model, as holes are filled in, etc.</span><u></u><u>= </u></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ca= libri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></= u></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ca= libri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">What might work better is= to just do the csg operation and generate a uv atlas for the resultant mesh. You can then generate a new texture map for this uv parametization b= y sampling from the original one, in a similar manner to the way in which p= eople produce bumpmaps mapping the normals of highly tessellated models ont= o low-detail models. </span><u></u><u></u></p> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ca= libri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></= u></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ca= libri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></= u></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ca= libri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></= u></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"= ;Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s= ize:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> Jon Watt= e [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" target=3D"_blank">jwatte@gmai= l.com</a>] <br> <b>Sent:</b> Thursday, May 08, 2014 11:08 AM<br> <b>To:</b> Game Development Algorithms<br> <b>Subject:</b> [Algorithms] CSG operations on textured meshes -- something= better than CGAL?</span><u></u><u></u></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal">I have a triangle mesh composed of many submeshes wi= th different textures/materials. This mesh may not be a 2-manifold -- it ma= y have open edges. Typical game art.<u></u><u></u></p> <div> <div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal">I now want to create a 3mm thick shell of this mesh.= As an approximation, taking each triangle, and extrude it back along the n= ormal of each vertex, and union all of those generated chopped pyramids would be an approximation of what I want. If I do literal= ly that, and self-union the result, then that should resolve the self-inter= section problems I'll run into along narrow sharp creases etc.<u></u><u= ></u></p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal">I can't find any library to do this, though. CGA= L has some fairly robust functions on NEF polyhedra, but those polyhedra do= n't seem to allow parameterization (which is academic speak for texture coordinates that may have discontinuities across edges.)= <u></u><u></u></p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal">So, what are some robust CSG libraries available tha= t work on such game-style meshes, preserving texture coordinates?<u></u><u>= </u></p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal">(And actually, I don't have one such mesh; I hav= e > 120 million such meshes, so a by-hand or even script-the-Max-shell-m= odifier solution is unlikely to work. I do have hundreds of Linux servers at my disposal, though.)<br clear=3D"all"> <u></u><u></u></p> <div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right:.5in;margin-left:.5in"> <br> <br> Sincerely,<br> <br> Jon Watte<br> <br> <u></u><u></u></p> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </blockquote> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p> </div> </div></div></div> </div> <br>-----------------------------------------------------------------------= -------<br> "Accelerate Dev Cycles with Automated Cross-Browser Testing - For FREE= <br> Instantly run your Selenium tests across 300+ browser/OS combos.<br> Get unparalleled scalability from the best Selenium testing platform availa= ble<br> Simple to use. Nothing to install. 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