Re: CGOS source on github
uurtamo <[email protected]> Fri, 22 Jan 2021 06:46:05 -0800
| Newsgroups | gmane.games.devel.go |
|---|---|
| Message-ID | <CADg0iNCiqzVvz-nCip8+ErBRQpRYUfA-9JqpCQctp-9Eb7B--w@mail.gmail.com> |
--===============4535487165744087158== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000226bf705b97e4023" --000000000000226bf705b97e4023 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable also frankly not a problem for a rating system to handle. a rating system shouldn't be tweaked to handle eccentricities of its players other than the general assumptions of how a game's result is determined (like, does it allow for "win" and "draw" and "undetermined" or just "win"). s. On Fri, Jan 22, 2021 at 6:29 AM David Wu <[email protected]> wrote: > On Fri, Jan 22, 2021 at 8:08 AM R=C3=A9mi Coulom <[email protected]> = wrote: > >> You are right that non-determinism and bot blind spots are a source of >> problems with Elo ratings. I add randomness to the openings, but it is >> still difficult to avoid repeating some patterns. I have just noticed th= at >> the two wins of CrazyStone-81-15po against LZ_286_e6e2_p400 were caused = by >> very similar ladders in the opening: >> http://www.yss-aya.com/cgos/viewer.cgi?19x19/SGF/2021/01/21/733333.sgf >> http://www.yss-aya.com/cgos/viewer.cgi?19x19/SGF/2021/01/21/733301.sgf >> Such a huge blind spot in such a strong engine is likely to cause rating >> compression. >> R=C3=A9mi >> > > I agree, ladders are definitely the other most noticeable way that Elo > model assumptions may be broken, since pure-zero bots have a hard time wi= th > them, and can easily cause difference(A,B) + difference(B,C) to be very > inconsistent with difference(A,C). If some of A,B,C always handle ladders > very well and some are blind to them, then you are right that probably no > amount of opening randomization can smooth it out. > > _______________________________________________ > Computer-go mailing list > [email protected] > http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go > --000000000000226bf705b97e4023 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,he= lvetica,sans-serif">also frankly not a problem for a rating system to handl= e.</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,s= ans-serif"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:aria= l,helvetica,sans-serif">a rating system shouldn't be tweaked to handle = eccentricities of its players other than the general assumptions of how a g= ame's result is determined (like, does it allow for "win" and= "draw" and "undetermined" or just "win").</d= iv><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-s= erif"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,hel= vetica,sans-serif">s.</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-famil= y:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><br></div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote= "><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Fri, Jan 22, 2021 at 6:29 AM Dav= id Wu <<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</a= >> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px= 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><di= v dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr">On Fri, Jan 22, 2021 at 8:08 AM R=C3=A9mi Co= ulom <<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" target=3D"_blank">remi.co= [email protected]</a>> wrote:<br></div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquo= te class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px = solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>You are righ= t that non-determinism and bot blind spots are a source of problems with El= o ratings. I add randomness to the openings, but it is still difficult to a= void repeating some patterns. I have just noticed that the two wins of Craz= yStone-81-15po against=20 LZ_286_e6e2_p400 were caused by very similar ladders in the opening:</div><= div><a href=3D"http://www.yss-aya.com/cgos/viewer.cgi?19x19/SGF/2021/01/21/= 733333.sgf" target=3D"_blank">http://www.yss-aya.com/cgos/viewer.cgi?19x19/= SGF/2021/01/21/733333.sgf</a></div><div><a href=3D"http://www.yss-aya.com/c= gos/viewer.cgi?19x19/SGF/2021/01/21/733301.sgf" target=3D"_blank">http://ww= w.yss-aya.com/cgos/viewer.cgi?19x19/SGF/2021/01/21/733301.sgf</a></div><div= >Such a huge blind spot in such a strong engine is likely to cause rating c= ompression.</div><div>R=C3=A9mi</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div= >I agree, ladders are definitely the other most noticeable way that Elo mod= el assumptions may be broken, since pure-zero bots have a hard time with th= em, and can easily cause difference(A,B)=C2=A0+ difference(B,C) to be very = inconsistent with difference(A,C). If some of A,B,C always handle ladders v= ery well and some are blind to them, then you are=C2=A0right that probably = no amount of opening randomization can smooth it out.</div><div><br></div><= /div></div> _______________________________________________<br> Computer-go mailing list<br> <a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" target=3D"_blank">Computer-g= [email protected]</a><br> <a href=3D"http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go" rel=3D"nore= ferrer" target=3D"_blank">http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-= go</a><br> </blockquote></div> --000000000000226bf705b97e4023-- --===============4535487165744087158== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Computer-go mailing list [email protected] http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go --===============4535487165744087158==--