Re: The entry competence level for graphics programmers
"Gregory Junker" <[email protected]> Tue, 20 Sep 2011 11:25:29 -0700
| Newsgroups | gmane.games.devel.sweng |
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This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --===============1569280260== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_07E0_01CC7788.01217810" Content-Language: en-us This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_07E0_01CC7788.01217810 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit What you need to understand is that the studios most likely to give you "monetary recognition" for "related software development experience" are the ones most likely to go under within a year. These studios are desperate for *anyone* to apply for their open positions. If you can't afford that level of instability, you may be restricted to the "JP Morgan" of games development. But even then, you aren't guaranteed a long tenure - large, well-funded operations can suddenly decide to lay everyone off without notice (*cough* LucasArts *cough*). You also need to understand that to any games studio worth working for, you *are* essentially fresh out of university. 5 years of professional C++ programming (and you didn't mention if you had any C++, btw - expect lots of technical questions about C and C++) might get you an interview, but it's not going to get you above junior level (if only probationary) if you've never had a professional games programming position. Greg From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Tommy Brett Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2011 11:15 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [Sweng-Gamedev] The entry competence level for graphics programmers Agreed, but on the other hand, programming experience and coding practices are somewhat transferable between roles, and I've certainly participated in all the usual aspects of launching a product, including source control, dealing with clients and the "it HAS to be done by 8.30am tomorrow" bits. I certainly wouldn't be applying for a job at the JP Morgan of games studios, but I would be hoping to get some monetary recognition for the fact that I'm not simply fresh out of University. On Tue, Sep 20, 2011 at 1:35 PM, Gregory Junker <[email protected]> wrote: Unfortunately, having had no experience in the games industry, you will most likely start at a junior level, even if it's just probationary. Games are no different than any other industry; if you have had no practical experience in an industry, you don't get to jump in at the mid- to high-level spots. As an example, if you had no experience at all in commercial banking/finance, would you expect JP Morgan to let you start as an investment banker because you do some stock trading on the side? TBH, you probably need more than just holiday time to learn graphics programming at any level that would be attractive to most game studios. Greg From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Tommy Brett Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2011 10:24 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [Sweng-Gamedev] The entry competence level for graphics programmers Thanks for the replies guys, I actually wasn't aware of much of the goings on in the windows 8 world or WinRT beyond the new interface, but after spending my lunch reading about it it I'm interested, as long as c# is always an option over JS. The reason I asked about the differentiation between junior and not, is that if I do get into the games industry, I can't afford to be on a lower wage than I am currently, and having spent no time at all on shipped video game products (but oh so much on fancy flash sites for companies with even fancier budgets) I really need as many cards as possible in my hand. The other option of course would be to release my own little game on XBLA, XB Indie or Steam. However I've already spent this year's holiday time! - Tommy On Tue, Sep 20, 2011 at 1:12 PM, James Robertson <[email protected]> wrote: Not that I'm jaded and bitter or anything, but... A couple of years experience seems to be all you need these days to be considered a senior in the games industry. :) Tom Nettleship wrote: On Tue, Sep 20, 2011 at 3:32 PM, Tommy Brett <[email protected]> wrote: I graduated 5 years ago with the intention of becoming a game developer, my career got sidetracked and although this sidetrack led to an ultimately comfortable existence and a lot of life lessons learned, I'm now at the point where my career as a Flash / Flex developer is stagnating. It may also be coming to a forced end as more and more of my employer's clients move away from Flash each month. I've been keeping up with the times, and doing a lot of graphics programming on the side using nVidia's CG shader programming language and OpenGL. If you've got general programming experience, decent C/C++, an understanding of lower level coding & knowledge of OpenGL/DirectX you're already skilled enough to do a junior graphics programming role. The only thing stopping you from a non-junior role would be experience shipping products in that role. For example, I know that one area I lack skill in is using shader functions built for DirectX 10 and above - by virtue of me still using an XP machine (GPU is DX10 capable though, reeeally need to upgrade), and I suspect that not being knowledgeable about, say, tessellation using the GPU would swiftly kill any application I would make for a graphics programmer role that paid more than free lunches. I don't think lack of a knowledge of a (rarely used in production code) GPU feature matters at all. I've never used hardware tesselation. DX11 (less so 10) experience would give you an easier time of it, but not much compared to being able to demonstrate knowledge and enthusiasm about general graphics programming principles. TomN _______________________________________________ Sweng-Gamedev mailing list [email protected] http://lists.midnightryder.com/listinfo.cgi/sweng-gamedev-midnightryder.com _______________________________________________ Sweng-Gamedev mailing list [email protected] http://lists.midnightryder.com/listinfo.cgi/sweng-gamedev-midnightryder.com _______________________________________________ Sweng-Gamedev mailing list [email protected] http://lists.midnightryder.com/listinfo.cgi/sweng-gamedev-midnightryder.com ------=_NextPart_000_07E0_01CC7788.01217810 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <html xmlns:v=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" = xmlns:o=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" = xmlns:w=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" = xmlns:m=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml" = xmlns=3D"http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40"><head><META = HTTP-EQUIV=3D"Content-Type" CONTENT=3D"text/html; = charset=3Dus-ascii"><meta name=3DGenerator content=3D"Microsoft Word 12 = (filtered medium)"><style><!-- /* Font Definitions */ @font-face {font-family:"Cambria Math"; panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;} @font-face {font-family:Calibri; panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} @font-face {font-family:Tahoma; panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;} /* Style Definitions */ p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal {margin:0in; margin-bottom:.0001pt; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";} a:link, span.MsoHyperlink {mso-style-priority:99; color:blue; text-decoration:underline;} a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed {mso-style-priority:99; color:purple; text-decoration:underline;} p {mso-style-priority:99; mso-margin-top-alt:auto; margin-right:0in; mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto; margin-left:0in; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";} span.EmailStyle18 {mso-style-type:personal-reply; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D;} .MsoChpDefault {mso-style-type:export-only;} @page WordSection1 {size:8.5in 11.0in; margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;} div.WordSection1 {page:WordSection1;} --></style><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <o:shapedefaults v:ext=3D"edit" spidmax=3D"1026" /> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <o:shapelayout v:ext=3D"edit"> <o:idmap v:ext=3D"edit" data=3D"1" /> </o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue = vlink=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'>What you need to understand is that the studios most likely to give = you “monetary recognition” for “related software = development experience” are the ones most likely to go under = within a year. These studios are desperate for *<b>anyone</b>* to apply = for their open positions. If you can’t afford that level of = instability, you may be restricted to the “JP Morgan” of = games development. But even then, you aren’t guaranteed a long = tenure – large, well-funded operations can suddenly decide to lay = everyone off without notice (*cough* LucasArts = *<b>cough</b>*).<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'>You also need to understand that to any games studio worth working = for, you *<b>are</b>* essentially fresh out of university. 5 years of = professional C++ programming (and you didn’t mention if you had = any C++, btw – expect lots of technical questions about C and C++) = might get you an interview, but it’s not going to get you above = junior level (if only probationary) if you’ve never had a = professional games programming position. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'><br>Greg<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div = style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in = 4.0pt'><div><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF = 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span>= </b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> = [email protected] = [mailto:[email protected]] <b>On Behalf Of = </b>Tommy Brett<br><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, September 20, 2011 11:15 = AM<br><b>To:</b> [email protected]<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: = [Sweng-Gamedev] The entry competence level for graphics = programmers<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p = class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'>Agreed, but on the other hand, = programming experience and coding practices are = somewhat transferable between roles, and I've certainly = participated in all the usual aspects of launching a product, including = source control, dealing with clients and the "it HAS to be done by = 8.30am tomorrow" bits. I certainly wouldn't be applying for a job = at the JP Morgan of games studios, but I would be hoping to get some = monetary recognition for the fact that I'm not simply fresh out of = University.<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>On Tue, Sep 20, 2011 = at 1:35 PM, Gregory Junker <<a = href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</a>> = wrote:<o:p></o:p></p><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>Unfortunately, having had no = experience in the games industry, you will most likely start at a junior = level, even if it’s just probationary. Games are no different than = any other industry; if you have had no practical experience in an = industry, you don’t get to jump in at the mid- to high-level = spots. </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>As an example, if you had no = experience at all in commercial banking/finance, would you expect JP = Morgan to let you start as an investment banker because you do some = stock trading on the side?</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>TBH, you probably need more = than just holiday time to learn graphics programming at any level that = would be attractive to most game studios. </span><o:p></o:p></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'><br>Greg</span><o:p></o:p></p><p= class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><div= style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in = 4.0pt'><div><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF = 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>From:</span></b><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'> <a = href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" = target=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a> = [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" = target=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a>] = <b>On Behalf Of </b>Tommy Brett<br><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, September 20, = 2011 10:24 AM</span><o:p></o:p></p><div><p = class=3DMsoNormal><br><b>To:</b> <a = href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" = target=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a><br><b>Subject:</b> = Re: [Sweng-Gamedev] The entry competence level for graphics = programmers<o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div><p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p><= /o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Thanks for = the replies guys,<o:p></o:p></p><div><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p><= /o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>I actually = wasn't aware of much of the goings on in the windows 8 world or WinRT = beyond the new interface, but after spending my lunch reading about it = it I'm interested, as long as c# is always an option over = JS.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p><= /o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>The reason = I asked about the differentiation between junior and not, is that if I = do get into the games industry, I can't afford to be on a lower wage = than I am currently, and having spent no time at all on shipped video = game products (but oh so much on fancy flash sites for companies with = even fancier budgets) I really need as many cards as possible in my = hand.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p><= /o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>The other = option of course would be to release my own little game on XBLA, XB = Indie or Steam. However I've already spent this year's holiday = time!<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p><= /o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt'>- = Tommy<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>On Tue, Sep = 20, 2011 at 1:12 PM, James Robertson <<a = href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" = target=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Not that = I'm jaded and bitter or anything, but...<br><br>A couple of years = experience seems to be all you need these days to be considered a senior = in the games industry.<br><br>:)<o:p></o:p></p><div><div><p = class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><br><br><br>= Tom Nettleship wrote:<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>On Tue, Sep = 20, 2011 at 3:32 PM, Tommy Brett <<a = href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" = target=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>I graduated = 5 years ago with the intention of becoming a game developer, my career = got sidetracked and although this sidetrack led to an ultimately = comfortable existence and a lot of life lessons learned, I'm now at the = point where my career as a Flash / Flex developer is stagnating. It may = also be coming to a forced end as more and more of my employer's clients = move away from Flash each month. I've been keeping up with the times, = and doing a lot of graphics programming on the side using nVidia's CG = shader programming language and OpenGL.<o:p></o:p></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt'><br>If you've got = general programming experience, decent C/C++, an<br>understanding of = lower level coding & knowledge of OpenGL/DirectX<br>you're already = skilled enough to do a junior graphics programming<br>role. The only = thing stopping you from a non-junior role would be<br>experience = shipping products in that role.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>For = example, I know that one area I lack skill in is using shader functions = built for DirectX 10 and above - by virtue of me still using an XP = machine (GPU is DX10 capable though, reeeally need to upgrade), and I = suspect that not being knowledgeable about, say, tessellation using the = GPU would swiftly kill any application I would make for a graphics = programmer role that paid more than free lunches.<o:p></o:p></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt'><br>I don't think = lack of a knowledge of a (rarely used in production<br>code) GPU feature = matters at all. I've never used hardware<br>tesselation. DX11 (less so = 10) experience would give you an easier<br>time of it, but not much = compared to being able to demonstrate<br>knowledge and enthusiasm about = general graphics = programming<br>principles.<br><br>TomN<br>_______________________________= ________________<br>Sweng-Gamedev mailing list<br><a = href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" = target=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a><br><a = href=3D"http://lists.midnightryder.com/listinfo.cgi/sweng-gamedev-midnigh= tryder.com" = target=3D"_blank">http://lists.midnightryder.com/listinfo.cgi/sweng-gamed= ev-midnightryder.com</a><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>____________= ___________________________________<br>Sweng-Gamedev mailing list<br><a = href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" = target=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a><br><a = href=3D"http://lists.midnightryder.com/listinfo.cgi/sweng-gamedev-midnigh= tryder.com" = target=3D"_blank">http://lists.midnightryder.com/listinfo.cgi/sweng-gamed= ev-midnightryder.com</a><o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div><p = class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p><= /o:p></p></div></div></div></div></div></div><p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><br>______________________________________= _________<br>Sweng-Gamedev mailing list<br><a = href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">Sweng-Gamedev@lists= .midnightryder.com</a><br><a = href=3D"http://lists.midnightryder.com/listinfo.cgi/sweng-gamedev-midnigh= tryder.com" = target=3D"_blank">http://lists.midnightryder.com/listinfo.cgi/sweng-gamed= ev-midnightryder.com</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><p = class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div></div></body></html> ------=_NextPart_000_07E0_01CC7788.01217810-- --===============1569280260== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Sweng-Gamedev mailing list [email protected] http://lists.midnightryder.com/listinfo.cgi/sweng-gamedev-midnightryder.com --===============1569280260==--