Re: The entry competence level for graphics programmers
Megan Fox <[email protected]> Tue, 20 Sep 2011 13:59:44 -0600
| Newsgroups | gmane.games.devel.sweng |
|---|---|
| Message-ID | <CAOv03kNCGZ1+W25FxPyuCn13EVo_yNQUGCUnETWNBnDq9baS3w@mail.gmail.com> |
--===============1156638900== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0015174c1b9cce0d3904ad64e714 --0015174c1b9cce0d3904ad64e714 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yep. As a matter of interest, the company I work days for (LEGO / LEGO Universe) brought on a Flash programmer for their UI work that had 0 previous games experience (but lots of normal dev experience), and it was I think a salary bump for him, or was at least neutral. In 3 years, he's now become the senior engineer on the project. So yes, there is potential to move across without dropping too much salary, but still, be prepared for it. The smaller or less "cool" the company, the better your chances of moving across without taking a hit are. (which make= s Zynga in particular a great suggestion for Flash folks - they're more open to regular developers than, say, an Epic is.) ... as for shader debugging - yeah, graphics programmers don't have a bag o= f black magic. Well, we don't when it comes to debugging, at least ;) I use "turn the pixel red"-esque debugging tricks all the time, and they're particularly powerful if you're working with a class of hardware that supports dynamic branching. PIX is super cool, but I only pull it out for the really gnarly problems. -megan On Tue, Sep 20, 2011 at 12:38 PM, Oystein Eftevaag <[email protected]>wrote= : > Also something to consider: Most larger-scale games these days use Flash > for their in-game GUIs (see Scaleform), so there's opportunities there as > well. > > > On 9/20/2011 2:18 PM, Tommy Brett wrote: > > An interesting and informative angle, I did pitch the idea of doing some > games to my current employer but they're largely inexperienced with > developing games, and aren't really willing to take the risk. Perhaps fla= sh > games programming would be the way to get my foot in the door. > > On Tue, Sep 20, 2011 at 2:10 PM, Gregory Junker <[email protected]>wrote= : > >> One option you may have, with 5 years as a Flash developer, is to gain >> industry experience with a Flash games developer. Since you mentioned th= at >> you can=92t afford a salary decrease, then you probably can=92t afford a= n >> unstable situation either (which is what most small independent studios = will >> be, and the ones most likely to hire anyone who sounds like they might k= now >> something about games). >> >> >> >> So have you looked at Zynga? >> >> >> >> http://www.zynga.com/jobs/ >> >> >> >> A surprising number of people I have worked with in the past in various >> studios have landed there, and it=92s quite stable. Spend some time at Z= ynga, >> get some industry experience on your resume, and work on your =93areas f= or >> improvement=94 in your spare time like you are now. >> >> >> >> One thing to bear in mind, is that any studio who is looking for a >> graphics programmer above junior/entry level, is likely doing so because >> their current graphics programmer, who is almost certainly rather senior= , is >> leaving, and they need someone to replace him/her. Therefore, you may ne= ed >> to set your sights either a bit lower, or on a different target=85or cho= ose a >> different strategy. It=92s much easier to get into a games studio as a >> gameplay programmer than it is a graphics programmer, and working somewh= ere >> like Zynga can get you demonstrable industry gameplay experience. The >> hardest part about getting into games, is actually getting into games; o= nce >> in, you=92re in. >> >> >> >> Greg >> >> >> >> *From:* [email protected] [mailto: >> [email protected]] *On Behalf Of *Tommy Bret= t >> >> *Sent:* Tuesday, September 20, 2011 7:33 AM >> *To:* [email protected] >> *Subject:* [Sweng-Gamedev] The entry competence level for graphics >> programmers >> >> >> >> Hello ladies and gents, >> >> >> >> I graduated 5 years ago with the intention of becoming a game developer, >> my career got sidetracked and although this sidetrack led to an ultimate= ly >> comfortable existence and a lot of life lessons learned, I'm now at the >> point where my career as a Flash / Flex developer is stagnating. It may = also >> be coming to a forced end as more and more of my employer's clients move >> away from Flash each month. I've been keeping up with the times, and doi= ng a >> lot of graphics programming on the side using nVidia's CG shader program= ming >> language and OpenGL. >> >> >> >> I'm looking for a little insight into what skill level you expect entry >> level, and reasonably competent graphics programmers (i.e. qualifying as >> something above 'junior' in their job title, even if that's just the >> omission of the word) to be at, and the difference between the two. By s= kill >> level, I mean knowledge base, for example implementing certain shader >> routines (e.g. normal mapping) and grasp of mathematics. Before I enter = the >> job search proper, I want to make absolutely sure that my skills are in = fact >> up to par as I understand that graphics programming positions in particu= lar >> are highly competitive. For example, I know that one area I lack skill i= n is >> using shader functions built for DirectX 10 and above - by virtue of me >> still using an XP machine (GPU is DX10 capable though, reeeally need to >> upgrade), and I suspect that not being knowledgeable about, >> say, tessellation using the GPU would swiftly kill any application I wou= ld >> make for a graphics programmer role that paid more than free lunches. >> >> >> >> On the other hand, this may not be the case, which is why I'm sending th= is >> out to you better informed guys for a little feedback. >> >> >> >> - Tommy >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Sweng-Gamedev mailing list >> [email protected] >> >> http://lists.midnightryder.com/listinfo.cgi/sweng-gamedev-midnightryder.= com >> >> > > > _______________________________________________ > Sweng-Gamedev mailing [email protected]://lis= ts.midnightryder.com/listinfo.cgi/sweng-gamedev-midnightryder.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > Sweng-Gamedev mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.midnightryder.com/listinfo.cgi/sweng-gamedev-midnightryder.c= om > > --=20 Megan Fox http://www.glassbottomgames.com/ --0015174c1b9cce0d3904ad64e714 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yep.=A0 As a matter of interest, the company I work days for (LEGO / LEGO U= niverse) brought on a Flash programmer for their UI work that had 0 previou= s games experience (but lots of normal dev experience), and it was I think = a salary bump for him, or was at least neutral.=A0 In 3 years, he's now= become the senior engineer on the project.<br> <br>So yes, there is potential to move across without dropping too much sal= ary, but still, be prepared for it.=A0 The smaller or less "cool"= the company, the better your chances of moving across without taking a hit= are.=A0 (which makes Zynga in particular a great suggestion for Flash folk= s - they're more open to regular developers than, say, an Epic is.)<br> <br><br>... as for shader debugging - yeah, graphics programmers don't = have a bag of black magic.=A0 Well, we don't when it comes to debugging= , at least ;)=A0 I use "turn the pixel red"-esque debugging trick= s all the time, and they're particularly powerful if you're working= with a class of hardware that supports dynamic branching.<br> <br>PIX is super cool, but I only pull it out for the really gnarly problem= s.<br><br>-megan<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, Sep 20, 2011 at = 12:38 PM, Oystein Eftevaag <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:oystein@= geheb.com">[email protected]</a>></span> wrote:<br> <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p= x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;"> =20 =20 =20 <div bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF" text=3D"#000000"> Also something to consider: Most larger-scale games these days use Flash for their in-game GUIs (see Scaleform), so there's opportunities there as well.<div><div></div><div class=3D"h5"><br> <br> On 9/20/2011 2:18 PM, Tommy Brett wrote: <blockquote type=3D"cite">An interesting and informative angle, I did p= itch the idea of doing some games to my current employer but they're largely inexperienced with developing games, and aren't really willing to take the risk. Perhaps flash games programming would be the way to get my foot in the door.<br> <br> <div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, Sep 20, 2011 at 2:10 PM, Gregory Junker <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" = target=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a>></span> wrote:<br> <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border= -left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> <div link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple" lang=3D"EN-US"> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:= #1F497D">One option you may have, with 5 years as a Flash developer, is to gain industry experience with a Flash games developer. Since you mentioned that you can=92t afford a salary decrease, then you probably can=92t afford an unstable situation either (which is what most small independent studios will be, and the ones most likely to hire anyone who sounds like they might know something about games). </span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:= #1F497D">=A0</span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:= #1F497D">So have you looked at Zynga? </span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"> <span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">=A0</span></= p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:= #1F497D"><a href=3D"http://www.zynga.com/jobs/" target=3D"_blank">http://ww= w.zynga.com/jobs/</a></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:= #1F497D">=A0</span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:= #1F497D">A surprising number of people I have worked with in the past in various studios have landed there, and it=92s quite stable. Spend some time at Zynga, get some industry experience on your resume, and work on your =93areas for improvement=94 in your spare time like you are now. </spa= n></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:= #1F497D">=A0</span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:= #1F497D">One thing to bear in mind, is that any studio who is looking for a graphics programmer above junior/entry level, is likely doing so because their current graphics programmer, who is almost certainly rather senior, is leaving, and they need someone to replace him/her. Therefore, you may need to set your sights either a bit lower, or on a different target=85or choose a different strategy. It=92s much easier to get into a games studio as a gameplay programmer than it is a graphics programmer, and working somewhere like Zynga can get you demonstrable industry gameplay experience. The hardest part about getting into games, is actually getting into games; once in, you=92re in.</span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:= #1F497D">=A0</span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:= #1F497D">Greg</span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:= #1F497D">=A0</span></p> <div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;paddin= g:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt"> <div> <div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;= padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in"> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0= pt">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt"> <a href=3D"mailto:swe= [email protected]" target=3D"_blank">sweng-gamedev= [email protected]</a> [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:sweng-gamedev-bounces@lis= ts.midnightryder.com" target=3D"_blank">[email protected]= tryder.com</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Tommy Brett</span></p> <div><br> <b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, September 20, 2011 7:33 AM<br> <b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:sweng-gamedev@midnightry= der.com" target=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a><br> </div> <b>Subject:</b> [Sweng-Gamedev] The entry competence level for graphics programmers <p> </p> </div> </div> <div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal">=A0</p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hello ladies and gents,</p> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal">=A0</p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"> I graduated 5 years ago with the intention of becoming a game developer, my career got sidetracked and although this sidetrack led to an ultimately comfortable existence and a lot of life lessons learned, I'm now at the point wher= e my career as a Flash / Flex developer is stagnating. It may also be coming to a forced end as more and more of my employer's clients move away from Flash each month. I've been keeping up with the times, and doing a lot of graphics programming on the side using nVidia's CG shader programming language and OpenGL.=A0</p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal">=A0</p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal">I'm looking for a little insight into what skill level you expect entry level, and reasonably competent graphics programmers (i.e. qualifying as something above 'junior' in their job title, even if that&#= 39;s just the omission of the word) to be at, and the difference between the two. By skill level, I mean knowledge base, for example implementing certain shader routines (e.g. normal mapping) and grasp of mathematics. Before I enter the job search proper, I want to make absolutely sure that my skills are in fact up to par as I understand that graphics programming positions in particular are highly competitive. For example, I know that one area I lack skill in is using shader functions built for DirectX 10 and above - by virtue of me still using an XP machine (GPU is DX10 capable though, reeeally need to upgrade), and I suspect that not being=A0knowledgeable=A0about, say,=A0tessellation=A0using the GPU would swiftly kill any application I would make for a graphics programmer role that paid more than free lunches.=A0</p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal">=A0</p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal">On the other hand, this may not be the case, which is why I'm sending this out to you better informed guys for a little feedback.</p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal">=A0</p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal">- Tommy</p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal">=A0</p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal">=A0</p> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> <br> _______________________________________________<br> Sweng-Gamedev mailing list<br> <a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" target= =3D"_blank">[email protected]</a><br> <a href=3D"http://lists.midnightryder.com/listinfo.cgi/sweng-game= dev-midnightryder.com" target=3D"_blank">http://lists.midnightryder.com/lis= tinfo.cgi/sweng-gamedev-midnightryder.com</a><br> <br> </blockquote> </div> <br> <br> <fieldset></fieldset> <br> <pre>_______________________________________________ Sweng-Gamedev mailing list <a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" target=3D"_blank">= [email protected]</a> <a href=3D"http://lists.midnightryder.com/listinfo.cgi/sweng-gamedev-midnig= htryder.com" target=3D"_blank">http://lists.midnightryder.com/listinfo.cgi/= sweng-gamedev-midnightryder.com</a> </pre> </blockquote> <br> </div></div></div> <br>_______________________________________________<br> Sweng-Gamedev mailing list<br> <a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">Sweng-Gamedev@list= s.midnightryder.com</a><br> <a href=3D"http://lists.midnightryder.com/listinfo.cgi/sweng-gamedev-midnig= htryder.com" target=3D"_blank">http://lists.midnightryder.com/listinfo.cgi/= sweng-gamedev-midnightryder.com</a><br> <br></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br>Megan Fox<br><a hre= f=3D"http://www.glassbottomgames.com/" target=3D"_blank">http://www.glassbo= ttomgames.com/</a><br><br> --0015174c1b9cce0d3904ad64e714-- --===============1156638900== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Sweng-Gamedev mailing list [email protected] http://lists.midnightryder.com/listinfo.cgi/sweng-gamedev-midnightryder.com --===============1156638900==--