Re: Requesting Other GM's Opinions
"Former Trout" <[email protected]> Mon, 16 Jul 2007 16:21:31 -0600
| Newsgroups | gmane.games.diplomacy.cat23.gm |
|---|---|
| Message-ID | <[email protected]> |
--D9x7IXbt0SKA5Pcs3aNmpOyYx1ZGO-j9yQXYgIw Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It is a little bit of a paradox. The rules state that not including having a unit designation does not invalidate the order, but having the wrong unit designation does. Considering the flack I'm receiving for enforcing this, I might seriously have to consider revising my HR's after all is said and done. However, I probably won't. I firmly believe that players should be responsible enough to know which units they have in which locations. And to double-check their orders when submitting them. I don't consider this to be too unreasonable, although by the response from everyone else involved most people do. I've actually just been accused of using my house rules to circumvent the basic rules of diplomacy. I can't see this as being the case though, when the basic rules fundamentally make a difference between invalid and ambiguous orders. The question that seems to divide everyone though is which side of the fence you fall on - is an incorrect unit designation invalid or ambiguous.. Trout. On 7/16/07, [email protected] <[email protected]> wrote: > > Trout, > > I think that your ruling has to stand based on your posted house rules, > and those rules having been?presented before the game started.? However, > doesn't this incident beg the question of WHY this situation is handled this > way by your house rules??? Is it really worth monitoring unit types in the > order writing structure??? It seems to me that many GMs specifically use > rules rules that ignore unit types to avoid this very situation.? I'm?not > sure that anything is gained by enforcing orders' syntax this way.??However, > your rules clearly say this is the way that you adjudicate, and to do > otherwise now would be contrary to your estblished rules.? Enforce the rules > you said would govern the game, explain why to the players, and move on.? > > Randolph > > -----Original Message----- > From: Adam Kuehn <[email protected] <akuehn%40nc.rr.com>> > To: [email protected] <CAT23-GM%40yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Fri, 13 Jul 2007 3:51 pm > Subject: RE: [CAT23-GM] Requesting Other GM's Opinions > > Tell him you asked other GMs and they all agreed. Feel free to send him a > copy of my message if you think it will help at all (I don't speak for the > other responders in the thread). I know that players, especially less > experienced ones, can get really chapped when their own carelessness gets > them in trouble. I have sympathy, 'cause I've certainly done that before, > myself. But remind him that it isn't a tactical game and a good diplomat > hasn't lost just because London falls to an unfortunate mistake. > > Good luck with it, > > -Adam > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [email protected] <CAT23-GM%40yahoogroups.com> > > [mailto:[email protected] <CAT23-GM%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf > Of Former Trout > > Sent: Friday, July 13, 2007 3:15 PM > > To: [email protected] <CAT23-GM%40yahoogroups.com> > > Subject: Re: [CAT23-GM] Requesting Other GM's Opinions > > > > Thanks everyone. > > > > I wish I could say that the situation has resolved itself > > amicably, but the player in question does not seem to be > > reasonable about this. Ah well. The advice has been greatly > > appreciated. > > > > Regards, > > > > Trout > > Community email addresses: > Post message: [email protected] <CAT23-GM%40onelist.com> > Subscribe: [email protected]<CAT23-GM-subscribe%40onelist.com> > Unsubscribe: [email protected]<CAT23-GM-unsubscribe%40onelist.com> > List owner: [email protected] <CAT23-GM-owner%40onelist.com> > > Shortcut URL to this page: > http://www.onelist.com/community/CAT23-GM > Yahoo! Groups Links > > __________________________________________________________ > AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free > from AOL at AOL.com. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] --D9x7IXbt0SKA5Pcs3aNmpOyYx1ZGO-j9yQXYgIw Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01//EN" "http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/strict.dtd"> <html> <head> </head> <!-- Network content --> <body style="background-color: #ffffff;"> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStartT|**|-~--> <div id="ygrp-mlmsg" style="width:655px; position:relative;"> <div id="ygrp-msg" style="width: 490px; padding: 0 15px 0 0; float:left; z-index:1;"> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlEndT|**|-~--> <div id="ygrp-text"> <p>It is a little bit of a paradox. The rules state that not including having<br> a unit designation does not invalidate the order, but having the wrong unit<br> designation does. Considering the flack I'm receiving for enforcing this, I<br> might seriously have to consider revising my HR's after all is said and<br> done.<br> <br> However, I probably won't. I firmly believe that players should be<br> responsible enough to know which units they have in which locations. And to<br> double-check their orders when submitting them. I don't consider this to be<br> too unreasonable, although by the response from everyone else involved most<br> people do.<br> <br> I've actually just been accused of using my house rules to circumvent the<br> basic rules of diplomacy. I can't see this as being the case though, when<br> the basic rules fundamentally make a difference between invalid and<br> ambiguous orders. The question that seems to divide everyone though is<br> which side of the fence you fall on - is an incorrect unit designation<br> invalid or ambiguous..<br> <br> Trout.<br> <br> On 7/16/07, <a href="mailto:RUFFHAUS8%40aol.com">RUFFHAUS8@aol.<wbr>com</a> <<a href="mailto:RUFFHAUS8%40aol.com">RUFFHAUS8@aol.<wbr>com</a>> wrote:<br> ><br> > Trout,<br> ><br> > I think that your ruling has to stand based on your posted house rules,<br> > and those rules having been?presented before the game started.? However,<br> > doesn't this incident beg the question of WHY this situation is handled this<br> > way by your house rules??? Is it really worth monitoring unit types in the<br> > order writing structure??? It seems to me that many GMs specifically use<br> > rules rules that ignore unit types to avoid this very situation.? I'm?not<br> > sure that anything is gained by enforcing orders' syntax this way.??However,<br> > your rules clearly say this is the way that you adjudicate, and to do<br> > otherwise now would be contrary to your estblished rules.? Enforce the rules<br> > you said would govern the game, explain why to the players, and move on.?<br> ><br> > Randolph<br> ><br> > -----Original Message-----<br> > From: Adam Kuehn <<a href="mailto:akuehn%40nc.rr.com">[email protected].<wbr>com</a> <akuehn%40nc.<wbr>rr.com>><br> > To: <a href="mailto:CAT23-GM%40yahoogroups.com">CAT23-GM@yahoogroup<wbr>s.com</a> <CAT23-GM%40yahoogr<wbr>oups.com><br> > Sent: Fri, 13 Jul 2007 3:51 pm<br> > Subject: RE: [CAT23-GM] Requesting Other GM's Opinions<br> ><br> > Tell him you asked other GMs and they all agreed. Feel free to send him a<br> > copy of my message if you think it will help at all (I don't speak for the<br> > other responders in the thread). I know that players, especially less<br> > experienced ones, can get really chapped when their own carelessness gets<br> > them in trouble. I have sympathy, 'cause I've certainly done that before,<br> > myself. But remind him that it isn't a tactical game and a good diplomat<br> > hasn't lost just because London falls to an unfortunate mistake.<br> ><br> > Good luck with it,<br> ><br> > -Adam<br> ><br> > > -----Original Message-----<br> > > From: <a href="mailto:CAT23-GM%40yahoogroups.com">CAT23-GM@yahoogroup<wbr>s.com</a> <CAT23-GM%40yahoogr<wbr>oups.com><br> > > [mailto:<a href="mailto:CAT23-GM%40yahoogroups.com">CAT23-GM@yahoogroup<wbr>s.com</a> <CAT23-GM%40yahoogr<wbr>oups.com><wbr>] On Behalf<br> > Of Former Trout<br> > > Sent: Friday, July 13, 2007 3:15 PM<br> > > To: <a href="mailto:CAT23-GM%40yahoogroups.com">CAT23-GM@yahoogroup<wbr>s.com</a> <CAT23-GM%40yahoogr<wbr>oups.com><br> > > Subject: Re: [CAT23-GM] Requesting Other GM's Opinions<br> > ><br> > > Thanks everyone.<br> > ><br> > > I wish I could say that the situation has resolved itself<br> > > amicably, but the player in question does not seem to be<br> > > reasonable about this. Ah well. The advice has been greatly<br> > > appreciated.<br> > ><br> > > Regards,<br> > ><br> > > Trout<br> ><br> > Community email addresses:<br> > Post message: <a href="mailto:CAT23-GM%40onelist.com">CAT23-GM@onelist.<wbr>com</a> <CAT23-GM%40onelist<wbr>.com><br> > Subscribe: <a href="mailto:CAT23-GM-subscribe%40onelist.com">CAT23-GM-subscribe@<wbr>onelist.com</a><CAT23-GM-subscribe<wbr>%40onelist.<wbr>com><br> > Unsubscribe: <a href="mailto:CAT23-GM-unsubscribe%40onelist.com">CAT23-GM-unsubscrib<wbr>e@onelist.<wbr>com</a><CAT23-GM-unsubscri<wbr>be%40onelist.<wbr>com><br> > List owner: <a href="mailto:CAT23-GM-owner%40onelist.com">CAT23-GM-owner@<wbr>onelist.com</a> <CAT23-GM-owner%<wbr>40onelist.<wbr>com><br> ><br> > Shortcut URL to this page:<br> > <a href="http://www.onelist.com/community/CAT23-GM">http://www.onelist.<wbr>com/community/<wbr>CAT23-GM</a><br> > Yahoo! Groups Links<br> ><br> > ____________<wbr>_________<wbr>_________<wbr>_________<wbr>_________<wbr>_________<wbr>_<br> > AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free<br> > from AOL at AOL.com.<br> ><br> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]<br> ><br> > <br> ><br> <br> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]<br> <br> </p> </div> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStart|**|-~--> <span width="1" style="color: white;">__._,_.___</span> <!-- Start the section with Message In topic --> <div id="ygrp-actbar"> <span class="left"> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CAT23-GM/message/5546;_ylc=X3oDMTMzN202bW42BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzM2MDI2OQRncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwNTcxNDcEbXNnSWQDNTU1OQRzZWMDZnRyBHNsawN2dHBjBHN0aW1lAzExODQ2MjQ3MjMEdHBjSWQDNTU0Ng--"> Messages in this topic </a> (<span class="bld">0</span>) </span> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CAT23-GM/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJvZmIxNmM3BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzM2MDI2OQRncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwNTcxNDcEbXNnSWQDNTU1OQRzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNycGx5BHN0aW1lAzExODQ2MjQ3MjM-?act=reply&messageNum=5559"> <span class="bld"> Reply </span> (via web post) </a> | <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CAT23-GM/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJkZ2NlMW51BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzM2MDI2OQRncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwNTcxNDcEc2VjA2Z0cgRzbGsDbnRwYwRzdGltZQMxMTg0NjI0NzIz" class="bld"> Start a new topic </a> </div> <!------- Start Nav Bar ------> <!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| --> <div id="ygrp-vitnav"> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CAT23-GM/messages;_ylc=X3oDMTJkODAybDV2BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzM2MDI2OQRncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwNTcxNDcEc2VjA2Z0cgRzbGsDbXNncwRzdGltZQMxMTg0NjI0NzIz">Messages</a> | <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CAT23-GM/files;_ylc=X3oDMTJlcWFwdW5zBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzM2MDI2OQRncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwNTcxNDcEc2VjA2Z0cgRzbGsDZmlsZXMEc3RpbWUDMTE4NDYyNDcyMw--">Files</a> | <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CAT23-GM/photos;_ylc=X3oDMTJkdXRrcWI0BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzM2MDI2OQRncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwNTcxNDcEc2VjA2Z0cgRzbGsDcGhvdARzdGltZQMxMTg0NjI0NzIz">Photos</a> | <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CAT23-GM/links;_ylc=X3oDMTJlYTNpb282BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzM2MDI2OQRncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwNTcxNDcEc2VjA2Z0cgRzbGsDbGlua3MEc3RpbWUDMTE4NDYyNDcyMw--">Links</a> | <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CAT23-GM/database;_ylc=X3oDMTJicDJkcG43BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzM2MDI2OQRncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwNTcxNDcEc2VjA2Z0cgRzbGsDZGIEc3RpbWUDMTE4NDYyNDcyMw--">Database</a> | <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CAT23-GM/polls;_ylc=X3oDMTJlb29kN3U3BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzM2MDI2OQRncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwNTcxNDcEc2VjA2Z0cgRzbGsDcG9sbHMEc3RpbWUDMTE4NDYyNDcyMw--">Polls</a> | <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CAT23-GM/members;_ylc=X3oDMTJkN3VmNWRiBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzM2MDI2OQRncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwNTcxNDcEc2VjA2Z0cgRzbGsDbWJycwRzdGltZQMxMTg0NjI0NzIz">Members</a> | <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CAT23-GM/calendar;_ylc=X3oDMTJjYm50aG1mBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzM2MDI2OQRncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwNTcxNDcEc2VjA2Z0cgRzbGsDY2FsBHN0aW1lAzExODQ2MjQ3MjM-">Calendar</a> </div> <!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| --> <!-- Do not have place to put it yet --> <div id="ygrp-grft"> </div> <!-- yahoo logo --> <!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| --> <div id="ygrp-ft"> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTJjamttM2M1BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzM2MDI2OQRncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwNTcxNDcEc2VjA2Z0cgRzbGsDZ2ZwBHN0aW1lAzExODQ2MjQ3MjM-"> <img src="http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/yg/img/logo/ma_grp_160.gif" height="15" width="106" border="0" alt="Yahoo! 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