Re: Re: Requesting Other GM's Opinions
Ray Setzer <[email protected]> Wed, 18 Jul 2007 12:25:40 -0500
| Newsgroups | gmane.games.diplomacy.cat23.gm |
|---|---|
| Message-ID | <[email protected]> |
--vug-yZAZSYf0f4leu2vkh8qjzexyoIBubqipCce Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit [email protected] wrote: > Some of you guys would really make great senators.... > > This entire issue boils down to two things.? Almost all of us have > acknowledged that Trout's house rules were stated beforehand, and > that he was correct to adjudicate the way he has.? He really has no > choice but to do so.?? With that out of the way the only thing > remaining is a question of what exactly is gained by having a house > rule so written.? In my view the ONLY thing gained by this is > instances of controversy like this.? There is no benefit to be had by > ruling the order in question? invalid.? Part of the natural beauty of > this game is it's simplicity. When we write our house rules, isn't it > best to keep this in mind? > > As someone else correctly pointed out, the overwhelming majority of > occurences of this scenario are going to be the result of a typo.?Are > we really interested in being that focused on invalidating an order > on a typo??? > Agreed. The preservation of right to miss order sometimes get precedence over the idea that players wish orders to succeed. I'd say this is similar to the concept of deadlines. Its quite common that GM's will bend on deadlines so as to not bring games to a unnatural halt. > -----Original Message----- From: Adam Kuehn <[email protected]> To: > [email protected] Sent: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 12:13 pm Subject: RE: > [CAT23-GM] Re: Requesting Other GM's Opinions > > > > Steph Mabie writes: > >> Bear in mind that A & F are English designations for the generally >> accepted (and official) pieces of the game (Army & Fleet). Could >> "F" stand for "Force?" Could "A" stand for "Armada?" It is >> plausible, in either case, that the A or F could stand for either >> type of unit, and without asking the player exactly what he meant, >> the GM cannot know. > > I'm sorry, but I reject this argument. Assuming you are conducting > the game in English, the "A" to mean "army" and the "F" to mean > "fleet" are explicitly defined in the rulebook. It completely > stretches credibility to assert that "A", when used as a unit > designation, is somehow ambiguous. > > It is reasonable to recognize, however, that unit designation > mistakes are 1. relatively easy to make, and 2. hard to spot once > made. Also, the rulebook does not explicitly require the use of unit > designations at all (although all the sample orders use them). > Therefore, I don't have a problem with someone concluding it is > therefore less disruptive to the game to ignore unit designations > Which is what you are doing by assuming: > >> [W]hen a player names an area occupied by that player, no matter >> what unit designation is used -- he wants that unit to do >> something. > > That's a legitimate human factors argument. But ambiguous? No, "A > Lon" is not ambiguous in the least. It clearly does not "admit of > two meanings". > >> If he happens to misorder it otherwise -- telling an army to move >> to sea, or a fleet inland, or affecting a space it can otherwise >> not affect (ie, A Lon - Ber), then fine. Poorly written? Very much >> so. Illegal? Not in my opinion. > > I would hold up "A Lon - Ber" as the very definition of an illegal > order. Did I misread you? > >> [O]ne of the other players (who, as it happened, was Edi Birsan) >> pointed out that since "Swe - Nor" could have only one possible >> legal interpretation, it should have been considered a legal move. > > I want to make sure we're clear on the phrasing. "Swe - Nor" has > only one possible interpretation which results in a legal move. > That's different from saying that "Swe - Nor" has one possible legal > interpretation. That difference can be important depending upon how > you construe the sentence in the rulebook which says, "An order which > admits of two meanings is not followed." Does an order which has two > or more possible interpretations, only one of which results in a > legal move, "admit of two meanings"? The answer to that question > resolves a great many misorder disputes. Unfortunately for us, the > rulebook doesn't explicitly answer it. Which is why we have the > Model House Rules. > > -Adam > > > > Community email addresses: Post message: [email protected] > Subscribe: [email protected] Unsubscribe: > [email protected] List owner: > [email protected] > > Shortcut URL to this page: http://www.onelist.com/community/CAT23-GM > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's > free from AOL at AOL.com. > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > Community email addresses: Post message: [email protected] > Subscribe: [email protected] Unsubscribe: > [email protected] List owner: > [email protected] > > Shortcut URL to this page: http://www.onelist.com/community/CAT23-GM > Yahoo! Groups Links > > --vug-yZAZSYf0f4leu2vkh8qjzexyoIBubqipCce Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01//EN" "http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/strict.dtd"> <html> <head> </head> <!-- Network content --> <body style="background-color: #ffffff;"> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStartT|**|-~--> <div id="ygrp-mlmsg" style="width:655px; position:relative;"> <div id="ygrp-msg" style="width: 490px; padding: 0 15px 0 0; float:left; z-index:1;"> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlEndT|**|-~--> <div id="ygrp-text"> <p><br> <br> <a href="mailto:RUFFHAUS8%40aol.com">RUFFHAUS8@aol.<wbr>com</a> wrote:<br> > Some of you guys would really make great senators....<br> > <br> > This entire issue boils down to two things.? Almost all of us have<br> > acknowledged that Trout's house rules were stated beforehand, and<br> > that he was correct to adjudicate the way he has.? He really has no<br> > choice but to do so.?? With that out of the way the only thing<br> > remaining is a question of what exactly is gained by having a house<br> > rule so written.? In my view the ONLY thing gained by this is<br> > instances of controversy like this.? There is no benefit to be had by<br> > ruling the order in question? invalid.? Part of the natural beauty of<br> > this game is it's simplicity. When we write our house rules, isn't it<br> > best to keep this in mind?<br> > <br> > As someone else correctly pointed out, the overwhelming majority of<br> > occurences of this scenario are going to be the result of a typo.?Are<br> > we really interested in being that focused on invalidating an order<br> > on a typo???<br> > <br> <br> Agreed. The preservation of right to miss order sometimes get precedence <br> over the idea that players wish orders to succeed.<br> <br> I'd say this is similar to the concept of deadlines. Its quite common <br> that GM's will bend on deadlines so as to not bring games to a unnatural <br> halt.<br> <br> > -----Original Message----- From: Adam Kuehn <<a href="mailto:akuehn%40nc.rr.com">[email protected].<wbr>com</a>> To:<br> > <a href="mailto:CAT23-GM%40yahoogroups.com">CAT23-GM@yahoogroup<wbr>s.com</a> Sent: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 12:13 pm Subject: RE:<br> > [CAT23-GM] Re: Requesting Other GM's Opinions<br> > <br> > <br> > <br> > Steph Mabie writes:<br> > <br> >> Bear in mind that A & F are English designations for the generally<br> >> accepted (and official) pieces of the game (Army & Fleet). Could<br> >> "F" stand for "Force?" Could "A" stand for "Armada?" It is <br> >> plausible, in either case, that the A or F could stand for either<br> >> type of unit, and without asking the player exactly what he meant,<br> >> the GM cannot know.<br> > <br> > I'm sorry, but I reject this argument. Assuming you are conducting<br> > the game in English, the "A" to mean "army" and the "F" to mean<br> > "fleet" are explicitly defined in the rulebook. It completely<br> > stretches credibility to assert that "A", when used as a unit<br> > designation, is somehow ambiguous.<br> > <br> > It is reasonable to recognize, however, that unit designation<br> > mistakes are 1. relatively easy to make, and 2. hard to spot once<br> > made. Also, the rulebook does not explicitly require the use of unit<br> > designations at all (although all the sample orders use them).<br> > Therefore, I don't have a problem with someone concluding it is<br> > therefore less disruptive to the game to ignore unit designations<br> > Which is what you are doing by assuming:<br> > <br> >> [W]hen a player names an area occupied by that player, no matter<br> >> what unit designation is used -- he wants that unit to do <br> >> something.<br> > <br> > That's a legitimate human factors argument. But ambiguous? No, "A<br> > Lon" is not ambiguous in the least. It clearly does not "admit of<br> > two meanings".<br> > <br> >> If he happens to misorder it otherwise -- telling an army to move<br> >> to sea, or a fleet inland, or affecting a space it can otherwise<br> >> not affect (ie, A Lon - Ber), then fine. Poorly written? Very much<br> >> so. Illegal? Not in my opinion.<br> > <br> > I would hold up "A Lon - Ber" as the very definition of an illegal<br> > order. Did I misread you?<br> > <br> >> [O]ne of the other players (who, as it happened, was Edi Birsan)<br> >> pointed out that since "Swe - Nor" could have only one possible<br> >> legal interpretation, it should have been considered a legal move.<br> > <br> > I want to make sure we're clear on the phrasing. "Swe - Nor" has<br> > only one possible interpretation which results in a legal move.<br> > That's different from saying that "Swe - Nor" has one possible legal<br> > interpretation. That difference can be important depending upon how<br> > you construe the sentence in the rulebook which says, "An order which<br> > admits of two meanings is not followed." Does an order which has two<br> > or more possible interpretations, only one of which results in a<br> > legal move, "admit of two meanings"? The answer to that question<br> > resolves a great many misorder disputes. Unfortunately for us, the<br> > rulebook doesn't explicitly answer it. Which is why we have the<br> > Model House Rules.<br> > <br> > -Adam<br> > <br> > <br> > <br> > Community email addresses: Post message: <a href="mailto:CAT23-GM%40onelist.com">CAT23-GM@onelist.<wbr>com</a> <br> > Subscribe: <a href="mailto:CAT23-GM-subscribe%40onelist.com">CAT23-GM-subscribe@<wbr>onelist.com</a> Unsubscribe:<br> > <a href="mailto:CAT23-GM-unsubscribe%40onelist.com">CAT23-GM-unsubscrib<wbr>e@onelist.<wbr>com</a> List owner:<br> > <a href="mailto:CAT23-GM-owner%40onelist.com">CAT23-GM-owner@<wbr>onelist.com</a><br> > <br> > Shortcut URL to this page: <a href="http://www.onelist.com/community/CAT23-GM">http://www.onelist.<wbr>com/community/<wbr>CAT23-GM</a><br> > Yahoo! Groups Links<br> > <br> > <br> > <br> > <br> > <br> > ____________<wbr>_________<wbr>_________<wbr>_________<wbr>_________<wbr>_________<wbr>_<br> > AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's<br> > free from AOL at AOL.com.<br> > <br> > <br> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]<br> > <br> > <br> > <br> > Community email addresses: Post message: <a href="mailto:CAT23-GM%40onelist.com">CAT23-GM@onelist.<wbr>com</a> <br> > Subscribe: <a href="mailto:CAT23-GM-subscribe%40onelist.com">CAT23-GM-subscribe@<wbr>onelist.com</a> Unsubscribe:<br> > <a href="mailto:CAT23-GM-unsubscribe%40onelist.com">CAT23-GM-unsubscrib<wbr>e@onelist.<wbr>com</a> List owner:<br> > <a href="mailto:CAT23-GM-owner%40onelist.com">CAT23-GM-owner@<wbr>onelist.com</a><br> > <br> > Shortcut URL to this page: <a href="http://www.onelist.com/community/CAT23-GM">http://www.onelist.<wbr>com/community/<wbr>CAT23-GM</a><br> > Yahoo! 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